Discussion:
Atheism
(too old to reply)
someone
2017-03-07 22:36:59 UTC
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If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
%
2017-03-07 22:40:12 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
someone
2017-03-07 22:45:44 UTC
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Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am an atheist. I'm not.
%
2017-03-07 22:49:18 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC, %
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
someone
2017-03-07 22:56:11 UTC
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Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC, %
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves as atheists whether they feel the type of person I described would qualify them to be identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind, but I'd rather thread responses stayed on topic.
%
2017-03-07 23:31:59 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:38:49 UTC
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Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
%
2017-03-08 02:48:54 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM
UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether
I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't
mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all
brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to
ignore him.
oh good i'm glad you found this guy ,
now he's met the biggest lie teller in usenet
Irreverend Dave
2017-03-08 15:14:21 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?

Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain in a
vat" crap a few years ago.
--
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in
delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 15:28:55 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 15:14:21 -0000 (UTC), Irreverend Dave
Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?
Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain in a
vat" crap a few years ago.
Spigel is a loonie who has been trolling here for a long time. I
hadn't realised he was also "someone".

Robert Carnegie
2017-03-07 23:34:43 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not hold the belief that God
doesn't exist either, should they be considered
an atheist?
Anyone who doesn't worship gods is an atheist.

I believe that the Giant Stone Heads of
Mount Rushmore exist, but I don't worship them.
That's the difference.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 00:48:55 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist

As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described

The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:42:35 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
%
2017-03-08 02:51:50 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 7:48:59 PM UTC-5,
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST),
someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies. There is
no strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or
not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has
no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its
existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic,
harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is.
Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a
god or gods. If
anything is added on to this, it is generally by
theist trolls.
and not one of the can prove ,
they don't believe what they don't believe
someone
2017-03-08 13:19:47 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.

Others such as the poster in this post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be a theist. Neither does the poster in this post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ

It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
someone
2017-03-08 13:59:57 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
someone
2017-03-08 14:10:53 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
Actually gnostic atheists might be too strong a term, as they might not believe that they had knowledge that God didn't exist, but just believed it anyway. So maybe non-agnostic atheists might be a better term.

That implies that a non-agnostic atheist that believed that their position didn't entail belief would be wrong.
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 01:19:00 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
That is a fence sitter, an agnost.
Never in mankind's history there is any report of a magical invincible figure capable of doing whatever it likes...
Those that make such a report are already in the psycho wards!!!
Rick Johnson
2017-03-08 01:27:11 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
That is a fence sitter, an agnost. Never in mankind's
history there is any report of a magical invincible figure
capable of doing whatever it likes... Those that make such
a report are already in the psycho wards!!!
Oops, it seems you may have mispelled church. ;-)
Davej
2017-03-08 01:31:50 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
No, that's a Jew.
Rick Johnson
2017-03-08 01:57:17 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
Hmm. I think a person may be or not an atheist if not they
do not hold the belief that god does not exist or not. But
after following all these logical knots, i cannot be really
sure if i'm not right, or not.

What was the question again?
Tom McDonald
2017-03-08 02:05:00 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 02:19:41 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid questions?

Can't he get what passes for his mind around the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?

Even though it's hardly rocket science.

He seems to want to define atheists by a subset of the consequences of
that.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:54:53 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid questions?
Can't he get what passes for his mind around the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?
Maybe some theists don't know what a theist is.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Even though it's hardly rocket science.
He seems to want to define atheists by a subset of the consequences of
that.
%
2017-03-08 03:03:57 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:19:49 PM UTC-5,
Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one
believes in is zero, one is
an atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid
questions?
Can't he get what passes for his mind around
the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?
Maybe some theists don't know what a theist is.
maybe they do but they don't care
Smiler
2017-03-08 02:29:45 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
And that has nothing to with whether a god exists or not
HRH, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh exists. He is a god to some
south seas islanders. I do not believe in him, therefore, I remain an
atheist.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:52:39 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of their attachments exist, either.
That would be heaven, hell, devils, imps, demons, monsters, miracles, angels,
the Word, etc.
%
2017-03-08 03:03:07 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:04:57 PM UTC-5,
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes
in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of
their attachments
exist, either. That would be heaven, hell,
devils, imps, demons,
monsters, miracles, angels, the Word, etc.
but atheists can't prove they don't believe what
they believe
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:36:43 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.

What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 07:58:26 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.

And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 08:22:53 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the
belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
Me me me.
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
Mack McDonagh
2017-03-08 09:38:58 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 11:56:51 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Usually some kind of major trauma, mostly psychological. Someone who is
lonely and lost and gets trapped when s/he's most vulnerable.
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 13:01:42 UTC
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2017 03:56:51 -0800, Jeanne Douglas
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Usually some kind of major trauma, mostly psychological. Someone who is
lonely and lost and gets trapped when s/he's most vulnerable.
It's like believing in Santa Claus. But most theists don't understand
this because they imagine their Santa Claus equivalent is real for
everybody.

But how is any adult with the most basic education going to start
believing in virgin births, etc if they weren't brainwashed to believe
in the so-called supernatural as a child?

The vast majority of claimed "ex-atheists" were already some kind of
theist when they "converted".

Because what they describe requires that they already were Christians
- eg Lewis and his argument from morality which rested on the
presumption that morals com from a god he claimed not to believe in,
the lying apologists who claim they were convinced by things like
Lord/Liar/Lunatic which rests on the presumption that the Bible is the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

They don't seem to understand that atheists always have better,
real-world explanations.

Would a Christian believe a Muslim who said he was Christian until he
read the Koran?

Obviously not, because he'd already have to be sufficiently Muslim to
believe what's in it.

Yet they can't extrapolate from that to non-Christians not believing
the Bible.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 12:16:50 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
The usual problem of theists who can't think outside their theism, so
they cannot grasp that people outside it cannot be described
accurately according to theistic presumptions. let alone have the
positions they imagine we do.

Because outside their theism, gods are merely something some people
believe and never reach the level of something that could or could not
exist..

A god called "God" is merely one of hundreds of different
deity-beliefs.

Yet Christians can't grasp that if you don't already believe it, it is
no different from all the rest.
Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by hypatiab7
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
If theists used their supposedly god-given brains, they would realise
that kids grow up believing whichever god their parents teach them.

So eg Hindu children don't grow up believing in the Christian god, and
vice versa.

But more importantly for this discussion, those whose parents and
others close to them don't teach them _their_ god don't grow up
believing in _any_ god. Not just one called "God".

There are three groups of these...

- Those whose parents are members of non-theistic Eastern religions,
who grow up believing the religion but don't believe in any god
because it doesn't have one.

- Children of Western atheists.

- The Paraha people of the remote Brazilian interior whose language
doesn't have the words with which frame and communicate the
concept.

Note that none of these teach their children that gods don't exist.
They don't need to, and the kids don't come up with the idea on their
own.
Post by Mack McDonagh
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Which has nothing to do with what I wrote, because adults aren't the
same as growing children.

I said "grew up" not "grown up".

Learn to read for comprehension..

But I have known _one_ atheist who went through the motions of
conversion to marry a Catholic. After thirty years of immersion and
raising a Catholic family, he had a genuine baptism. And unlike the
vast majority of claimed "ex-atheists", he understood what it meant to
be atheist from an atheist perspective.

But this is rare - there's just too much of the real world to
un-learn.

Would _you_ start believing in Zeus? Or Odin? Or Santa Claus?
Tom McDonald
2017-03-08 12:38:13 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Humans have evolved to be prone to making Type One errors, that is
thinking the sound in the grass is a lion when in fact it is just the
wind. IOW, it has been an evolutionary advantage to us to tend to
attribute agency to many things, some of which do not involve an actual
agent.

Given this quite useful though often false tendency, a person who grew
up in a household that didn't attribute supernatural agency to
everything might, in the course of her/his life, come to make Type One
errors in areas that others in their community attribute to a
supernatural agent. In such a case, an atheist child could indeed be
brought to religious belief.

That is probably, in fact, how religions began in the first place. It
would be interesting, IMHO, to do a study on folks raised atheists who
become religious later in life to see how often the religion they adopt
is the majority religion of their community/state/nation vs how often
the religion adopted varies from that of the surrounding community.
m***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 03:07:42 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
Olrik
2017-03-08 04:34:28 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
Believing in some god critter *is* a pathology.

And we accept "validity of subjectivity" when it regards to politics,
art and opinions in general.
--
Olrik
aa #1981
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 08:57:35 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
As if you an idiot knows what is pathology or subjectivity?
He Kicked Their Jewish Butts Out Of The Land
2017-03-08 15:24:02 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You faggimoto, I think the word agnostic was created to describe you....
Am I mistaken?
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