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Atheism
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someone
2017-03-07 22:36:59 UTC
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If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
%
2017-03-07 22:40:12 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
someone
2017-03-07 22:45:44 UTC
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Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am an atheist. I'm not.
%
2017-03-07 22:49:18 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC, %
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
someone
2017-03-07 22:56:11 UTC
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Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC, %
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves as atheists whether they feel the type of person I described would qualify them to be identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind, but I'd rather thread responses stayed on topic.
%
2017-03-07 23:31:59 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:38:49 UTC
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Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
%
2017-03-08 02:48:54 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM
UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether
I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't
mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all
brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to
ignore him.
oh good i'm glad you found this guy ,
now he's met the biggest lie teller in usenet
Irreverend Dave
2017-03-08 15:14:21 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?

Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain in a
vat" crap a few years ago.
--
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in
delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 15:28:55 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 15:14:21 -0000 (UTC), Irreverend Dave
Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?
Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain in a
vat" crap a few years ago.
Spigel is a loonie who has been trolling here for a long time. I
hadn't realised he was also "someone".
Irreverend Dave
2017-03-08 18:08:32 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 15:14:21 -0000 (UTC), Irreverend Dave
Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?
Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain
in a vat" crap a few years ago.
Spigel is a loonie who has been trolling here for a long time. I
hadn't realised he was also "someone".
At least he's not a persistent troll like some of the others. Just pops
in from time to time.

The name that appears in the From: header is
someone <***@googlemail.com>


Why he bothers with "someone" yet includes his name in the email addy is
beyond me.

Oh, yeah, you said he was a loonie, nevermind.
--
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in
delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 19:03:22 UTC
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Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by hypatiab7
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick head
about it i might not stay that way are all brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA "Someone" is a troll?
Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy who posted that "brain in a
vat" crap a few years ago.
If you think he's a troll, he probably is. I don't remember the name. When I had a killfile years ago, I probably killfiled him. But, he's just been added to my troll list. Thanks.
%
2017-03-08 19:25:44 UTC
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On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 10:17:12 AM
UTC-5, Irreverend Dave
On 07 Mar 2017, hypatiab7
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5,
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:49:19 PM
UTC, %
Post by %
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:40:13 PM
UTC,
%
Post by %
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief
that
God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
can you prove you believe you don't
believe
Just to be clear, I'm not wondering
whether I
am
an atheist. I'm not.
well what are you then
A theist asking people who identify
themselves
as atheists whether
they feel the type of person I described
would
qualify them to be
identified as an atheist. I hope you don't
mind,
but I'd rather
thread responses stayed on topic.
i was on topic but now that you went dick
head
about it i might not stay that way are all
brits
such mouthy little shits
% is a theist troll. You're best bet is to
ignore him.
And you don't suspect that Glenn Spigel AKA
"Someone" is a troll?
Just to jog your memory, this is the same guy
who posted that "brain
in a vat" crap a few years ago.
If you think he's a troll, he probably is. I
don't remember the name.
When I had a killfile years ago, I probably
killfiled him. But, he's
just been added to my troll list. Thanks.
i killfile myself because i'm so bad so don't mess
with me
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-07 23:34:43 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not hold the belief that God
doesn't exist either, should they be considered
an atheist?
Anyone who doesn't worship gods is an atheist.

I believe that the Giant Stone Heads of
Mount Rushmore exist, but I don't worship them.
That's the difference.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 00:48:55 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist

As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described

The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:42:35 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
%
2017-03-08 02:51:50 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 7:48:59 PM UTC-5,
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST),
someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies. There is
no strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or
not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has
no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its
existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic,
harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is.
Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a
god or gods. If
anything is added on to this, it is generally by
theist trolls.
and not one of the can prove ,
they don't believe what they don't believe
someone
2017-03-08 13:19:47 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.

Others such as the poster in this post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be a theist. Neither does the poster in this post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ

It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
someone
2017-03-08 13:59:57 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
someone
2017-03-08 14:10:53 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
Actually gnostic atheists might be too strong a term, as they might not believe that they had knowledge that God didn't exist, but just believed it anyway. So maybe non-agnostic atheists might be a better term.

That implies that a non-agnostic atheist that believed that their position didn't entail belief would be wrong.
someone
2017-03-08 15:36:24 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
Actually gnostic atheists might be too strong a term, as they might not believe that they had knowledge that God didn't exist, but just believed it anyway. So maybe non-agnostic atheists might be a better term.
That implies that a non-agnostic atheist that believed that their position didn't entail belief would be wrong.
Actually a non-agnostic atheist would presumably imply a gnostic atheist. So I don't think changing the term helps. Is there a term that any of you know of for the belief that God does not exist? So that one can distinguish between someone that believes they know that God does not exist, and someone that doesn't believe they know that God does not exist, but believes it anyway?
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 19:38:11 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
Actually gnostic atheists might be too strong a term, as they might not believe that they had knowledge that God didn't exist, but just believed it anyway. So maybe non-agnostic atheists might be a better term.
That implies that a non-agnostic atheist that believed that their position didn't entail belief would be wrong.
Making up new definitions to fit what you want to believe makes you a troll,
Glenn. It also shows that you didn't come to alt.atheism to learn about
atheists but to throw word salad nonsense at us. Hopefully, some lurkers did learn something about atheism from our responses and also figured out what you were up to.
%
2017-03-08 20:00:27 UTC
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On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:10:56 AM UTC-5,
On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 1:59:59 PM UTC,
On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 1:19:50 PM UTC,
On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 2:42:39 AM
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 7:48:59 PM
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST),
someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that
God exists but does
not hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either, should they
be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology
correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies. There
is no strong or weak atheist. There is
atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that
has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its
existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic,
harry potter,
tinkerbell ...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist
is. Basically, an
atheist is someone who lacks belief in the
existence of a god or
gods. If anything is added on to this, it is
generally by theist
trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem
to agree on what an
atheist is. Even your earlier response seems
quite confusing. You
wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a
newborn child to be an
atheist, even though presumably it doesn't
believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in
God, and lacking a
belief in God not existing are agnostics not
atheists, and they
don't seem to be a theist. Neither does the
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether
agnostics are atheists or
not. That if they are not, then atheism
entails the belief that
God does not exist. If agnostics are a
subgroup of atheists, then
they are a subgroup that, unlike the other
atheists, does not
entail the belief that God does not exist. So
whether atheists as
a whole are identified with a belief depends
on whether agnostics
are considered to be a subgroup. If an
atheist is not in the
agnostic subgroup, then they are identified
with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists,
then perhaps the
division could be between agnostic atheists
(no belief regarding
whether God exists or not), and gnostic
atheists (who hold the
belief that God doesn't exist).
Actually gnostic atheists might be too strong a
term, as they might
not believe that they had knowledge that God
didn't exist, but just
believed it anyway. So maybe non-agnostic
atheists might be a better
term.
That implies that a non-agnostic atheist that
believed that their
position didn't entail belief would be wrong.
Making up new definitions to fit what you want
to believe makes you a
troll,
Glenn. It also shows that you didn't come to
alt.atheism to learn
about
atheists but to throw word salad nonsense at us.
Hopefully, some
lurkers did learn something about atheism from
our responses and also
figured out what you were up to.
i tried to warn you
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:10:21 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:59:57 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
you cant hold the belief that a fairy/god does not exist, that would
require faith. There is no agnostic atheist and gnostic atheist. As I
said before you are an atheist and have no belief in a god or you are
not
someone
2017-03-08 16:48:17 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:59:57 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
you cant hold the belief that a fairy/god does not exist, that would
require faith. There is no agnostic atheist and gnostic atheist. As I
said before you are an atheist and have no belief in a god or you are
not
Are you stating that you don't believe that anyone believes that God doesn't exist because you don't believe that they could have faith in such a belief?

To others on this forum, are there none of you that believe that God doesn't exist
Davej
2017-03-08 19:48:42 UTC
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Post by someone
[...]
To others on this forum, are there none of you that believe
that God doesn't exist
Shove your imaginary friend up your ass.
Don Martin
2017-03-08 23:08:37 UTC
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Post by Davej
Post by someone
[...]
To others on this forum, are there none of you that believe
that God doesn't exist
Shove your imaginary friend up your ass.
Given the insubstantiality of said friend, that would be a great deal
less than a reverse fart.
--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
Je pense, donc je suis Charlie.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 19:56:13 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:59:57 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If agnostics were to be considered atheists, then perhaps the division could be between agnostic atheists (no belief regarding whether God exists or not), and gnostic atheists (who hold the belief that God doesn't exist).
you cant hold the belief that a fairy/god does not exist, that would
require faith. There is no agnostic atheist and gnostic atheist. As I
said before you are an atheist and have no belief in a god or you are
not
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I hold with Isaac Asimov's point
of view. He felt that plenty of time had passed during which believers
had come up with absolutely no evidence to prove their belief (not just Christians). Therefore their belief is not only unprovable but non-existent.
It took him years to come to this conclusion. Once he did, he was an atheist for the rest of his life. I'll gladly list his autobiographies, if you like.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:07:25 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:19:47 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
Who said that? Of course all newborns have no belief in a fairy and
could be considered an atheist.
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
No an agnostic is NOT an atheist. they simply think that the existence
of a god can be proven. they don't "believe" in a god/fairy, but they
can not rule out its existence, as I said before.
Basically an agnostic does not have faith <belief> in a god, but will
not say it does not exist.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 17:27:22 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:19:47 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is.
Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that
you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though
presumably it doesn't believe in God.
Only because Spigel is a pig-ignorant moron incapable of thinking
outside the theist box.
Post by b***@m.nu
Who said that? Of course all newborns have no belief in a fairy and
could be considered an atheist.
They are trivially atheist until they are taught to be theist - in
exactly the same way they are trivially amoral, apolitical etc.
Post by b***@m.nu
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in
God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
For fuck's sake, why can't these morons simply accept that atheists
are simply people who aren't theist, ie they are outside any theist
paradigm, not just his.

And that outside it, the very concept of gods is different to that
inside it.

Theists are too
stupid to understand that the very word "God" doesn't even mean the
same thing inside and outside the theist's religion...

Cut'n'pasted from the late Cliff Walker's excellent web site at

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9161.htm

[The Internet Infidels have been maintaining his site, but the link is
currently broken. You should be able to find it at the Internet
Archive]

Here is the Merriam Webster's definition for the word God:

the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped
as creator and ruler of the universe

Encarta World Dictionary (print edition) defines the same word as
follows:

the being believed in monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Islam,
and Christianity to be the all-powerful all-knowing creator of the
universe, worshiped as the only god

The Oxford American Dictionary defines it this way:

the creator and ruler of the universe in Christian, Jewish, and
Muslim teaching

Were I to use your [the person to whom he was responding]
understanding of the role that dictionaries play in determining
word meaning, and were I to rely solely upon the Merriam Webster's,
I'd be in big trouble, because this dictionary expresses its
definition as fact, rather than reporting it as the opinion of some
people. I'd have to believe that a "God" exists because the
dictionary does not qualify its definition as the opinion of some
but not all people.

The other dictionaries are more responsible than this, the second
reporting that this description is "believed" by certain groups, and
the third that this is according to the "teaching" of certain
groups. So, as a man who is proficient in the English language, I
would reject the first definition as patently biased, and would
accept the second and third as being accurate reports of how people
use this word.

[Me again...]

In other words, it is only seen as real inside those religions, and
outside them it is merely something they believe.

The belief certainly exists - but that's all it is. because the object
of that belief never reaches the level of something that could exist.

But most theists can't get their minds around this.
Post by b***@m.nu
Post by someone
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not.
That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not
exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup
that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does
not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief
depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an
atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with
a belief.
Only by pig-ignorant, stupid, nasty, sociopathic theists.
Post by b***@m.nu
No an agnostic is NOT an atheist. they simply think that the existence
of a god can be proven. they don't "believe" in a god/fairy, but they
can not rule out its existence, as I said before.
Atheism is about whether or not one is theist.

If one isn't theist then one is atheist. The two are complementary -
that's what the "a-" prefix does.

Agnostic is about claims to knowledge about something that is only in
the theist's worldview/ Most atheists don't have gods in their
worldview in such a form that they could be agnostic about them.

But stupid theists can't understand this because they cannot grasp
that gods don't mean the same thing outside their religion as inside
it.
Post by b***@m.nu
Basically an agnostic does not have faith <belief> in a god, but will
not say it does not exist.
Most people who call themselves agnostics, do so because they've
fallen for the theist's false dichotomy of believing it doesn't exist
or not knowing that it doesn't - both of which are emotionally
prejudicial to the point of falsehood because most atheists don't see
it those terms - it's merely somebody else's religious belief that
doesn't reach the level of something which could or couldn't exist.

The belief certainly exists, but that's all.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 19:28:47 UTC
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Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
A newborn baby doesn't think consciously . It's brain is still developing.
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be a theist.
That I disagree with. A lack of belief in something doesn't mean that they believe in something else (a god, a religion). You would have to be a telepath
to be able to prove that. And, you'd only be convincing yourself.
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If they are open to the possibility that a god (not just yours) exists, they
are an atheistic agnostic, not an atheist. Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. That
is why we keep asking for evidence from believers - evidence that they can't
provide or try to come up with reasons why they think it does. None have
worked, so far. All have either been disproved or to be totally illogical and
unreasonable. Faith will never be accepted. That is individual to each believer
and unproveable. It's also the final step in proving that believers don't even know what it is they believe in. That's why so many ultra-religious parents don't let their kids learn fairy tales. They know that religion is the first
step in driving imagination out of children. So, they pump their kids full of
only religion. They know that, if the kids figure out that fairy tales aren't
real, they'll possibly realize the same thing about religion.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 19:54:27 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:28:47 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
A newborn baby doesn't think consciously . It's brain is still developing.
Which is why it is _trivially atheist, _trivially_ amoral, _trivially_
apolitical, etc.

It might become theist if it is taught to be,

If it isn't, it remains atheist until somebody convinces it to become
theist. And if this doesn't happen, it remains atheist.

I was eight, the day I discovered that people believed in something
they called "God" and insisted it did things for which even kids knew
better explanations, not to mention things the same kids knew didn't
happen.
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in
God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be
a theist.
The moron imagines his religion's god is as important enough for
people outside his religion to believe things about it when they don't
even give it a thought because it's merely somebody else's religious
belief - just like Zeus Odin, Krishna, Osiris and all the others.

Again,,,

A belief, not a thing that could or could not exist.
Post by hypatiab7
That I disagree with. A lack of belief in something doesn't mean that
they believe in something else (a god, a religion). You would have to
be a telepath to be able to prove that. And, you'd only be convincing
yourself.
This is one of the nastier things that pretty well very theist does.

They don't seem to realise just how arrogant it is to insist that
we're something we aren't, and then tell us we're not telling the
truth about ourselves when we correct them.
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That
if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If
agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike
the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So
whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether
agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the
agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
The two are orthogonal, because they are about different thins. So one
can be either, neither or both.

One is about whether or not one is theist. The other is about claims
of knowledge about something that is part of the theist's worldview,
not the atheist's.
Post by hypatiab7
If they are open to the possibility that a god (not just yours) exists, they
are an atheistic agnostic, not an atheist. Atheists do not believe in a god
or gods. That is why we keep asking for evidence from believers - evidence
that they can't provide or try to come up with reasons why they think it
does. None have worked, so far. All have either been disproved or to be
totally illogical and unreasonable. Faith will never be accepted. That is
individual to each believer and unproveable. It's also the final step in
proving that believers don't even know what it is they believe in. That's
why so many ultra-religious parents don't let their kids learn fairy tales. T
hey know that religion is the first step in driving imagination out of children.
So, they pump their kids full of only religion. They know that, if the kids
figure out that fairy tales aren't real, they'll possibly realize the same thing
about religion.
The problem is that these morons imagine the only alternative to
believing in a god, is believing they don't exist - when they are too
irrelevant to have that belief about them.

As far as we're concerned, they are merely religious beliefs,
characters from religious mythology.

But theist conditioning prevents their thinking outside the box, even
to consider this.
someone
2017-03-08 21:44:39 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
Post by hypatiab7
Post by b***@m.nu
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:36:59 -0800 (PST), someone
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You just need to get your terminology correct.
Atheist is a person that has no belief in a fairy/fairies. There is no
strong or weak atheist. There is atheist or not atheist
As far as what you described a person that has no belief in a
fairy/fairies but does not rule out its existence is an agnostic,
which is exactly what you described
The group that believes in fairies, magic, harry potter, tinkerbell
...etc.. are called theists
Not all atheists agree on what an atheist is. Basically, an atheist is
someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods. If anything
is added on to this, it is generally by theist trolls.
Well given the replies so far, not all seem to agree on what an atheist is. Even your earlier response seems quite confusing. You wrote earlier that you wouldn't consider a newborn child to be an atheist, even though presumably it doesn't believe in God.
A newborn baby doesn't think consciously . It's brain is still developing.
So what definition of atheist would you be comfortable with? What about an ancient tribe that didn't believe in any gods. Would they not be considered atheist unless it were shown that they had at least considered theism?
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/glVPJAf_DQAJ
Seem to consider those that lack a belief in God, and lacking a belief in God not existing are agnostics not atheists, and they don't seem to be a theist.
That I disagree with. A lack of belief in something doesn't mean that they believe in something else (a god, a religion). You would have to be a telepath
to be able to prove that. And, you'd only be convincing yourself.
I never said it did, I was just commenting on the posts. You seem to consider something similar below.
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/HFtX_KsADgAJ
It seems to me that the issue is whether agnostics are atheists or not. That if they are not, then atheism entails the belief that God does not exist. If agnostics are a subgroup of atheists, then they are a subgroup that, unlike the other atheists, does not entail the belief that God does not exist. So whether atheists as a whole are identified with a belief depends on whether agnostics are considered to be a subgroup. If an atheist is not in the agnostic subgroup, then they are identified with a belief.
If they are open to the possibility that a god (not just yours) exists, they
are an atheistic agnostic, not an atheist. Atheists do not believe in a god or gods.
Here you seem to be stating that it is not sufficient to simply lack a belief in God's existance, you have to positively believe that it does not exist. So that of the following 2 people:

1) A person that lacks a belief in God, but lacks a belief that God doesn't exist either.

2) A person that lacks a belief in God, and believes that God doesn't exist.

You seem to think that only the second would be an atheist. Since the first does not have a belief that God doesn't exist and is therefore open to the idea. That though seems to contradict what you stated when you earlier wrote: "Basically, an atheist is someone who lacks belief in the existence of a god or gods."
Post by hypatiab7
That
is why we keep asking for evidence from believers - evidence that they can't
provide or try to come up with reasons why they think it does. None have
worked, so far. All have either been disproved or to be totally illogical and
unreasonable. Faith will never be accepted. That is individual to each believer
and unproveable. It's also the final step in proving that believers don't even know what it is they believe in. That's why so many ultra-religious parents don't let their kids learn fairy tales. They know that religion is the first
step in driving imagination out of children. So, they pump their kids full of
only religion. They know that, if the kids figure out that fairy tales aren't
real, they'll possibly realize the same thing about religion.
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 01:19:00 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
That is a fence sitter, an agnost.
Never in mankind's history there is any report of a magical invincible figure capable of doing whatever it likes...
Those that make such a report are already in the psycho wards!!!
Rick Johnson
2017-03-08 01:27:11 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
That is a fence sitter, an agnost. Never in mankind's
history there is any report of a magical invincible figure
capable of doing whatever it likes... Those that make such
a report are already in the psycho wards!!!
Oops, it seems you may have mispelled church. ;-)
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:13:47 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 17:27:11 -0800 (PST), Rick Johnson
Post by Rick Johnson
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
That is a fence sitter, an agnost. Never in mankind's
history there is any report of a magical invincible figure
capable of doing whatever it likes... Those that make such
a report are already in the psycho wards!!!
Oops, it seems you may have mispelled church. ;-)
hmm psycho church. LOL sounds about right.
Davej
2017-03-08 01:31:50 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
No, that's a Jew.
Rick Johnson
2017-03-08 01:57:17 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but
does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
Hmm. I think a person may be or not an atheist if not they
do not hold the belief that god does not exist or not. But
after following all these logical knots, i cannot be really
sure if i'm not right, or not.

What was the question again?
Tom McDonald
2017-03-08 02:05:00 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 02:19:41 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid questions?

Can't he get what passes for his mind around the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?

Even though it's hardly rocket science.

He seems to want to define atheists by a subset of the consequences of
that.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:54:53 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid questions?
Can't he get what passes for his mind around the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?
Maybe some theists don't know what a theist is.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Even though it's hardly rocket science.
He seems to want to define atheists by a subset of the consequences of
that.
%
2017-03-08 03:03:57 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:19:49 PM UTC-5,
Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist
either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one
believes in is zero, one is
an atheist.
Why does the moron keep asking such stupid
questions?
Can't he get what passes for his mind around
the fact that all an
atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist?
Maybe some theists don't know what a theist is.
maybe they do but they don't care
Smiler
2017-03-08 02:29:45 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
And that has nothing to with whether a god exists or not
HRH, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh exists. He is a god to some
south seas islanders. I do not believe in him, therefore, I remain an
atheist.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:17:48 UTC
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Post by Smiler
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
And that has nothing to with whether a god exists or not
HRH, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh exists. He is a god to some
south seas islanders. I do not believe in him, therefore, I remain an
atheist.
which is why I like to specify what god/gods I refer to. They are all
fairies(the ones that I am referring to.)
Smiler
2017-03-09 00:18:37 UTC
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Post by b***@m.nu
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
And that has nothing to with whether a god exists or not HRH, Prince
Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh exists. He is a god to some south seas
islanders. I do not believe in him, therefore, I remain an atheist.
which is why I like to specify what god/gods I refer to. They are all
fairies(the ones that I am referring to.)
Some, which I call 'corporeal gods', exist.
The sun, moon and some other planets have been worshipped as gods, as have
the Pharaohs, some of the Caesars and the Kim family of N. Korea. I
believe in none of them, yet I don't doubt that they exist(ed). The non-
corporeal gods, such as YAHWEH and Krishna are all figments of the
imagination of their inventors and believers.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:52:39 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of their attachments exist, either.
That would be heaven, hell, devils, imps, demons, monsters, miracles, angels,
the Word, etc.
%
2017-03-08 03:03:07 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:04:57 PM UTC-5,
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God
exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes
in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of
their attachments
exist, either. That would be heaven, hell,
devils, imps, demons,
monsters, miracles, angels, the Word, etc.
but atheists can't prove they don't believe what
they believe
Smiler
2017-03-09 00:19:33 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:04:57 PM UTC-5,
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either,
should they be considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of their attachments exist,
either. That would be heaven, hell, devils, imps, demons,
monsters, miracles, angels, the Word, etc.
but atheists can't prove they don't believe what they believe
Why would I need to do that?
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
duke
2017-03-08 21:17:17 UTC
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Post by hypatiab7
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Yep, and if there is/are no god/gods, none of their attachments exist, either.
That would be heaven, hell, devils, imps, demons, monsters, miracles, angels,
the Word, etc.
Where's your support for that?

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
2017-03-08 21:15:59 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Nope, you have to deny the existence of God to be an atheist.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Kevrob
2017-03-08 22:12:24 UTC
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Post by duke
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Nope, you have to deny the existence of God to be an atheist.
You'd be very annoyed if some atheist or Odinist or Quetzcotlist
defined your Christianity or Catholicism a particular way, Earl.

There's no "athiest pope." We all disbelieve in our own little
ways, and are not in unison any more than the Christians are.

I sometimes like to throw around "ignostic" and "theological
noncognitivist" as describing my attitude. The "ghod
question" is so much nonsense.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_religious_language

Kevin R
Tom McDonald
2017-03-08 22:25:14 UTC
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Post by duke
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Nope, you have to deny the existence of God to be an atheist.
And you have to have had sex with your god, with pictures and HIV status
records, to be a theist.

Is that OK with you? Or should people get to define their own
belief/non-belief status for themselves?
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 22:41:53 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:25:14 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by duke
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Nope, you have to deny the existence of God to be an atheist.
Deny what fucking existence of what fucking God?

Why can't these morons grasp the remarkably obvious fact that atheists
have nothing to deny, because its merely somebody else's religious
belief in exactly the same way Zeus, Odin, Krishna, Osiris and all the
others are to them?

How many times have we explained this to the in-your-face. low IQ
moron over the last two decades?
Post by Tom McDonald
And you have to have had sex with your god, with pictures and HIV status
records, to be a theist.
Would these go viral?
Post by Tom McDonald
Is that OK with you? Or should people get to define their own
belief/non-belief status for themselves?
"But that's different"

Christians have never understood the world and people beyond their
religion. So they "defined" people who believed in non-Christian gods
as believing in demons and killed them as heretics, eg in Central and
South America,

Even today, they practically accuse us of perjuring ourselves when we
tell them what our POV actually is, because they refuse to accept that
we aren't what they "think".

It's the same mentality that the Ayatollahs had in Iran after the
revolution, when they horribly executed even members of different
Islamic sects for "waging war against Allah on Earth".
someone
2017-03-08 22:43:07 UTC
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Post by Tom McDonald
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:05:00 -0600, Tom McDonald
Post by Tom McDonald
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
Yes. As long as the number of gods one believes in is zero, one is an
atheist.
Nope, you have to deny the existence of God to be an atheist.
And you have to have had sex with your god, with pictures and HIV status
records, to be a theist.
Is that OK with you? Or should people get to define their own
belief/non-belief status for themselves?
The atheists on this forum seem to be split on the matter. Some seem to agree with duke, some seem to agree with you. For example Hypatiab7 seems to think that if the person is open to the possibility of God existing (i.e. they don't hold the belief that God doesn't exist) then they don't qualify as an atheist (or at least that is the way I interpreted it), but would be an "atheistic agnostic". Though you could read the link and decide for yourself whether I have misinterpreted what was being stated. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/eM6-JyM8DgAJ

The problem seems to be that atheists on this forum don't seem to agree on what the term atheist means. So some like yourself have a definition which does not entail any belief, but others have a definition that does entail a belief. With your definition a person could think it more likely that God exists than they think its likely that God does not exist, but not have a belief either way, and qualify as an atheist.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 02:36:43 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.

What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 07:58:26 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.

And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 08:22:53 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the
belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
Me me me.
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
Mack McDonagh
2017-03-08 09:38:58 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 11:56:51 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Usually some kind of major trauma, mostly psychological. Someone who is
lonely and lost and gets trapped when s/he's most vulnerable.
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 13:01:42 UTC
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2017 03:56:51 -0800, Jeanne Douglas
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Usually some kind of major trauma, mostly psychological. Someone who is
lonely and lost and gets trapped when s/he's most vulnerable.
It's like believing in Santa Claus. But most theists don't understand
this because they imagine their Santa Claus equivalent is real for
everybody.

But how is any adult with the most basic education going to start
believing in virgin births, etc if they weren't brainwashed to believe
in the so-called supernatural as a child?

The vast majority of claimed "ex-atheists" were already some kind of
theist when they "converted".

Because what they describe requires that they already were Christians
- eg Lewis and his argument from morality which rested on the
presumption that morals com from a god he claimed not to believe in,
the lying apologists who claim they were convinced by things like
Lord/Liar/Lunatic which rests on the presumption that the Bible is the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

They don't seem to understand that atheists always have better,
real-world explanations.

Would a Christian believe a Muslim who said he was Christian until he
read the Koran?

Obviously not, because he'd already have to be sufficiently Muslim to
believe what's in it.

Yet they can't extrapolate from that to non-Christians not believing
the Bible.
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 12:16:50 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
The usual problem of theists who can't think outside their theism, so
they cannot grasp that people outside it cannot be described
accurately according to theistic presumptions. let alone have the
positions they imagine we do.

Because outside their theism, gods are merely something some people
believe and never reach the level of something that could or could not
exist..

A god called "God" is merely one of hundreds of different
deity-beliefs.

Yet Christians can't grasp that if you don't already believe it, it is
no different from all the rest.
Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by hypatiab7
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
If theists used their supposedly god-given brains, they would realise
that kids grow up believing whichever god their parents teach them.

So eg Hindu children don't grow up believing in the Christian god, and
vice versa.

But more importantly for this discussion, those whose parents and
others close to them don't teach them _their_ god don't grow up
believing in _any_ god. Not just one called "God".

There are three groups of these...

- Those whose parents are members of non-theistic Eastern religions,
who grow up believing the religion but don't believe in any god
because it doesn't have one.

- Children of Western atheists.

- The Paraha people of the remote Brazilian interior whose language
doesn't have the words with which frame and communicate the
concept.

Note that none of these teach their children that gods don't exist.
They don't need to, and the kids don't come up with the idea on their
own.
Post by Mack McDonagh
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Which has nothing to do with what I wrote, because adults aren't the
same as growing children.

I said "grew up" not "grown up".

Learn to read for comprehension..

But I have known _one_ atheist who went through the motions of
conversion to marry a Catholic. After thirty years of immersion and
raising a Catholic family, he had a genuine baptism. And unlike the
vast majority of claimed "ex-atheists", he understood what it meant to
be atheist from an atheist perspective.

But this is rare - there's just too much of the real world to
un-learn.

Would _you_ start believing in Zeus? Or Odin? Or Santa Claus?
Tom McDonald
2017-03-08 12:38:13 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not
hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be
considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Humans have evolved to be prone to making Type One errors, that is
thinking the sound in the grass is a lion when in fact it is just the
wind. IOW, it has been an evolutionary advantage to us to tend to
attribute agency to many things, some of which do not involve an actual
agent.

Given this quite useful though often false tendency, a person who grew
up in a household that didn't attribute supernatural agency to
everything might, in the course of her/his life, come to make Type One
errors in areas that others in their community attribute to a
supernatural agent. In such a case, an atheist child could indeed be
brought to religious belief.

That is probably, in fact, how religions began in the first place. It
would be interesting, IMHO, to do a study on folks raised atheists who
become religious later in life to see how often the religion they adopt
is the majority religion of their community/state/nation vs how often
the religion adopted varies from that of the surrounding community.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:24:45 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Well the first reason is because they lack intelligence, and they do
learn things. They hear stories and get peer pressure,about bad people
go to hell, then their fear takes over and they think that going to
church will actually save them from that, and that is just plain
stupidity. Yes ALL theists are fucking stupid (with a very few
exceptions)
Don Martin
2017-03-08 23:08:37 UTC
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Post by Mack McDonagh
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't
believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
They're trivially atheist.
And if they're not taught to be theist, they remain atheist as they
grow up.
How do you account for the small percentage of adults who becomr religious
without a religious upbringing?
Gullibility.
--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
Je pense, donc je suis Charlie.
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:21:00 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:36:43 -0800 (PST), hypatiab7
Post by hypatiab7
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if a god or gods exist. Some
agnostics lack god belief but are open to the possibility that one or
more may exist. Other agnostics do believe in a god or gods but are
open to the possibility that they could be wrong. They simply don't
know for sure. A gnostic knows. (At least they think they do.) An
agnostic doesn't know.
What you describe sounds like a newborn baby. I don't really consider an
infant an atheist. You have to be able to think to know what you do or don't believe. An infant is a blank slate waiting to be filled with knowledge.
Whether that knowledge is good or bad is a whole nother story.
You would be correct, kinda. Technically a baby is an atheist. but
atheist is a term that was created because of the root theist. I guess
the theists needed a term to describe those whom they wanted to
murder.
m***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 03:07:42 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
Olrik
2017-03-08 04:34:28 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
Believing in some god critter *is* a pathology.

And we accept "validity of subjectivity" when it regards to politics,
art and opinions in general.
--
Olrik
aa #1981
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 08:57:35 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
As if you an idiot knows what is pathology or subjectivity?
raven1
2017-03-08 15:55:38 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
The validity of subjectivity in regard to what, exactly?
b***@m.nu
2017-03-08 16:26:06 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
And you are a murdering rapist that believes in fairies. Prove me
wrong.
hypatiab7
2017-03-08 20:08:58 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
Atheism is a pathology to reject the validity of subjectivity.
You're back again, Wassim NouJeim? Run out of photography jobs in Canada?

--------------------------------------------------
I'm a woman and I'm wearing a red shirt today!
--------------------------------------------------
International Women's Day
He Kicked Their Jewish Butts Out Of The Land
2017-03-08 15:24:02 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?
You faggimoto, I think the word agnostic was created to describe you....
Am I mistaken?
Mynews
2017-03-08 16:00:05 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold
the belief that God exists
but does not hold the belief
that God doesn't exist either
should they
be considered an atheist?
Atheist Believe
Nothing Is God

I Believe In

The Son Of Nothing
Exist & He Not God

When One Belief Leak In Something
They Make Some-One A God

Now Is The Son Believable
Only When He Makes Himself Know

Now How Manly
Atheism Knows
Nothing Is God
raven1
2017-03-08 18:27:44 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:00:05 -0600, "Mynews"
Post by Mynews
Post by someone
If a person does not hold
the belief that God exists
but does not hold the belief
that God doesn't exist either
should they
be considered an atheist?
Atheist Believe
Nothing Is God
I Believe In
The Son Of Nothing
Exist & He Not God
When One Belief Leak In Something
They Make Some-One A God
Now Is The Son Believable
Only When He Makes Himself Know
Now How Manly
Atheism Knows
Nothing Is God
Language isn't your first language, is it?
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 21:24:19 UTC
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Post by raven1
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:00:05 -0600, "Mynews"
Post by Mynews
Post by someone
If a person does not hold
the belief that God exists
but does not hold the belief
that God doesn't exist either
should they
be considered an atheist?
Atheist Believe
Nothing Is God
I Believe In
The Son Of Nothing
Exist & He Not God
When One Belief Leak In Something
They Make Some-One A God
Now Is The Son Believable
Only When He Makes Himself Know
Now How Manly
Atheism Knows
Nothing Is God
Language isn't your first language, is it?
Damn, that almost made me spew coffee all over my keyboard.
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
Mynews
2017-03-09 00:37:15 UTC
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Post by raven1
On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:00:05 -0600, "Mynews"
Post by Mynews
Post by someone
If a person does not hold
the belief that God exists
but does not hold the belief
that God doesn't exist either
should they
be considered an atheist?
Atheist Believe
Nothing Is God
I Believe In
The Son Of Nothing
Exist & He Not God
When One Belief Leak In Something
They Make Some-One A God
Now Is The Son Believable
Only When He Makes Himself Know
Now How Manly
Atheism Knows
Nothing Is God
Language isn't your first language, is it?
Learn The Language
Of Nothing

Is Always First

Some Times
You Have To Quiet Down

Just To Comprehend
Nothing

Irreverend Dave
2017-03-08 18:23:21 UTC
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Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Let's see if I can break this down for you Glenn.

1.) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God exists"?

For me, it means that I don't accept the existence of God as a fact. This
makes me an atheist.


2) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God doesn't
exist"?

For me it merely means that I don't have enough evidence to confidently
proclaim with 100% certainty that God doesn't exist.


I have a feeling that what you're trying to do here is attempt to prove
that all atheists that don't proclaim that God doesn't exist are in fact
agnostics.
--
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in
delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
Christopher A. Lee
2017-03-08 19:33:33 UTC
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On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:23:21 -0000 (UTC), Irreverend Dave
Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Let's see if I can break this down for you Glenn.
1.) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God exists"?
For me, it means that I don't accept the existence of God as a fact. This
makes me an atheist.
2) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God doesn't
exist"?
For me it merely means that I don't have enough evidence to confidently
proclaim with 100% certainty that God doesn't exist.
I have a feeling that what you're trying to do here is attempt to prove
that all atheists that don't proclaim that God doesn't exist are in fact
agnostics.
Which they're not.

The two are orthogonal, but it gets more complicated because of those
atheists who call themselves agnostic because they've fallen for the
theist's false dichotomy, or because they don't want to upset theist
family, friends and colleagues.

Even though neither atheists nor agnostics are what theists who can't
think outside their religion, imagine.

Why, oh, why can't (mostly) theists understand that atheists aren't
what the ignorant majority imagine?

All they are, are people who aren't theist and are therefore outside
the theist's religious paradigm.

It's just a simple demographic description saying that we don't do
something that a lot of other people do.

Which is hardly rocket science.
Jeanne Douglas
2017-03-08 21:27:43 UTC
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Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Let's see if I can break this down for you Glenn.
1.) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God exists"?
For me, it means that I don't accept the existence of God as a fact. This
makes me an atheist.
2) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God doesn't
exist"?
For me it merely means that I don't have enough evidence to confidently
proclaim with 100% certainty that God doesn't exist.
I have a feeling that what you're trying to do here is attempt to prove
that all atheists that don't proclaim that God doesn't exist are in fact
agnostics.
That's poor poor dukie's "argument".
--
JD


"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
someone
2017-03-08 21:59:50 UTC
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Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Irreverend Dave
Post by someone
If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold
the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an
atheist?
Let's see if I can break this down for you Glenn.
1.) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God exists"?
For me, it means that I don't accept the existence of God as a fact. This
makes me an atheist.
2) What does it mean if someone says "I don't believe that God doesn't
exist"?
For me it merely means that I don't have enough evidence to confidently
proclaim with 100% certainty that God doesn't exist.
I have a feeling that what you're trying to do here is attempt to prove
that all atheists that don't proclaim that God doesn't exist are in fact
agnostics.
That's poor poor dukie's "argument".
I haven't supplied any argument and wasn't trying to. The question was "If a person does not hold the belief that God exists but does not hold the belief that God doesn't exist either, should they be considered an atheist?"

The breakdown of what the question means was hopefully useful. The person that broke it down (Irreverend Dave) seems to think that the person mentioned in the question would qualify as an atheist.

But others here don't seem to think so.

Hypatiab7 for example thinks that if the person is open to the possibility of God existing (i.e. they don't hold the belief that God doesn't exist) then they don't qualify as an atheist (or at least that is the way I interpreted it), but would be an atheistic agnostic. Though you could read the link and decide for yourself whether I have misinterpreted what was being stated. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/OWtqklDtguA/eM6-JyM8DgAJ

All I am trying to do is find out whether such a person would qualify as an atheist. No argument, just asking an atheist forum if they know. But unfortunately it doesn't seem simple, as it seems different forum members are giving contradictory answers.
Post by Jeanne Douglas
--
JD
"May your winter feast be an orgy of delight"
-- The Big Furry, Late Show with Stephen
Colbert
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