Discussion:
Are all arguments for the nonexistence of God fallacious?
(too old to reply)
A.Christian
2004-09-18 17:36:15 UTC
Permalink
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.

http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415

Kant frames the antinomy as follows:

Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.

Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.

He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.

I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
found here:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm

As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.

The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
argument for the antithesis in the Fourth Antinomy:

P 416 ....

But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.

(end quote)

Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.

Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.

In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.

So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Immortalist
2004-09-18 18:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
He merely wanted to show that the conclusion for either thesis is outside the
bounds or boundries of reason and it doesn't argue pro or con. In this is the
strongest empirical evidence for the christian. For he can claim the athiest is
going beyond what can be known by either claiming can prove or disprove the
theory of god.
Post by A.Christian
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
Havn't looked at this essy yet but Kant saved christianity already. Even though
he was probably an athiest his intention was to save it.
Post by A.Christian
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
No equivication was commited because the two thesis are two completely seperate
and different kinds of theories or arguments that can be derived by induction
from the available information we have of the world.
Post by A.Christian
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of reasoning. It
establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be made
explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern logician W. V.
Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.

Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily from our
attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought the
Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the transcendent will
always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that there is no
transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are meaningless. They
are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean, however,
that the transcendent defeats rational representation.

antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as 'paradox' or
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is whether the
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always existed.

The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).

Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.

http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm

In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary being as the
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first member or
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists inside or
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from reason's
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for infinite
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to spatio-temporal
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of freedom and
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims that there
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to appearances. In
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This result is
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason cannot prove
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and room is left
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some other way.

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8

--------------------------

REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason beyond its
boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;

Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the world, whether
as its part or as its cause.

Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every event is
contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes, for its
complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time, since it
contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain the
unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'

-------------CONTRARIES----------------------

Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in the world as
its part, or outside of it as its cause.

Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there can be none.
The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical conditions
is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be subject to
the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to the
original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The supposition of an
absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world, also
destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And yet, to act
as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.

http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm

He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
gaffo
2004-09-19 00:46:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
He merely wanted to show that the conclusion for either thesis is outside the
bounds or boundries of reason and it doesn't argue pro or con. In this is the
strongest empirical evidence for the christian. For he can claim the athiest is
going beyond what can be known by either claiming can prove or disprove the
theory of god.
Post by A.Christian
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
Havn't looked at this essy yet but Kant saved christianity already. Even though
he was probably an athiest his intention was to save it.
Post by A.Christian
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
No equivication was commited because the two thesis are two completely seperate
and different kinds of theories or arguments that can be derived by induction
from the available information we have of the world.
Post by A.Christian
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of reasoning. It
establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be made
explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern logician W. V.
Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.
Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily from our
attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought the
Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the transcendent will
always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that there is no
transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are meaningless. They
are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean, however,
that the transcendent defeats rational representation.
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as 'paradox' or
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is whether the
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always existed.
interesting - like Light is a Particle and/or a Wave. or the conflict
between relativity and quantum mechanics.

being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Post by Immortalist
The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary being as the
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first member or
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists inside or
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from reason's
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for infinite
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to spatio-temporal
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of freedom and
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims that there
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to appearances. In
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This result is
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason cannot prove
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and room is left
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some other way.
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason beyond its
boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the world, whether
as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every event is
contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes, for its
complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time, since it
contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain the
unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in the world as
its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there can be none.
The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical conditions
is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be subject to
the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to the
original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The supposition of an
absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world, also
destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And yet, to act
as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
you must be in the alt.philosophy group.................been many yrs
since Kant.

Solipsism is the only valid philosophy IMO. Kant was full of it.

Decarte was right with Meditations then went beyond what he could prove.


Hume had a realistic outlook in not assumng a truth underneath one's
experiences.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Immortalist
2004-09-19 03:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as 'paradox' or
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is whether the
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always existed.
interesting - like Light is a Particle and/or a Wave. or the conflict
between relativity and quantum mechanics.
Actually it is the difference between "Necesisity" and "Contingency" in relation
to (mediation) or non_immediate inference. We are dealing with contingencies here
which means they can be either true or false depending upon the circumstances.
But as you know a necessary truth must be true by definition of the subject. So
in that respect you are right about QM as an analogy.
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim you are a
solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
you must be in the alt.philosophy group.................been many yrs
since Kant.
Solipsism is the only valid philosophy IMO. Kant was full of it.
Is there any way for you to defend this argument that Kant was full of it? Can
you present a persuasive argument based upon what he says?

-----

Here are some snips about Kant's opinion about idealism and Berkeley's
inmaterialism (solipsism) and some about the cogitos (I AM);

The traditional "refutation" of idealism, (attributed to a "Dr. Johnson" as a
refutation of Bishop George Berkeley's version of idealism) suggests that, to
"disprove" idealism, all one has to do is kick something (or someone). As if to
say, "oh, so you don't believe in matter; then this shouldn't hurt a bit! But,
herein lies the problem. The only evidence sited for matter is "experience."

Remember when Hume referred to both "inward and outward sentiment?" He meant we
have the experience of stuff going on inside of us and the experience of stuff
going of outside of us. Both are experiences! Recall Kant's synthetic a priori
knowledge--the 12 categories including space and time, which filter the Noumena
into Phenomena. It is very similar here. In both cases there is "something"
outside that is then put into the minds structure and turned into an experience.
In both cases you can say that "you are not reading this text" and be perfectly
accurate! After Kant wrote his main book explaining how the mind constructs our
experience of the phenomenal realm, philosophers began wondering what
justification is there for the noumena? The Idealists answer is, there can be no
justification from experience.

http://commhum.mccneb.edu/dweber/101%20INTRO/Workbook/Chpt-3/3-2%20Idealism.htm

Refutation of Idealism - Kant argues that temporal judgments about one's own
states require reference to objects which endure in a way that mental
representations themselves do not, and therefore that consciousness of oneself
also implies consciousness of objects external to oneself [B 275-6] also [B
xxxix-xli].

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT7

When the Critique of Pure Reason was first published Kant was horrified when some
critics took him to be proposing a form of idealism not unlike, for example,
Berkeley's notorious immaterialism. On the face of it, it wouldn't be utterly
silly, given the arguments of the Aesthetic and Analytic, to suppose that Kant
was claiming that we construct the 'real world' in a way determined by the nature
of our sensory and intellectual apparatus, and that therefore there was simply no
such thing as the 'real world'. However Kant insists that this is not what he is
arguing, and in the second edition he adds a short section, 'The Refutation of
Idealism', where he argues against what he calls material idealism and
distinguishes it from transcendental idealism. We're going to concentrate on how
effective this refutation of material idealism is.

http://tinyurl.com/2sqpx

Kant's "Refutation of Empirical Idealism" has an anti-Cartesian conclusion:
"inner experience in general is only possible through outer experience in
general" (B 278). Due to wide-spread preoccupation with Cartesian skepticism, and
to the anti-naturalism of early analytic philosophy (reflected in its basic
division between "conceptual" and "empirical" issues), most of Kant's recent
anglophone commentators have sought a purely conceptual, "analytic" argument in
Kant's Refutation of Idealism--and then criticized Kant when no such plausible
argument can be reconstructed from his text. They charge that Kant's
transcendental arguments must argue by elimination, though they fail to eliminate
the possibility of Descartes' evil deceiver, or alternative forms of cognition,
or the possibility that the mere (individually subjective) appearances of things
would suffice for the possibility of self-consciousness.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~j018/ktpr-bl.htm

----------------------------

Realism in the Refutation of Idealism
Andrew Brook

Summary
In the Refutation of Idealism and in a long footnote on the same subject added to
the second-edition Preface, Kant seems to say things that point, prima facie,
strongly in the direction of realism. Because any such view would seem to be
completely incompatible with the doctrine of the unknowability of things as they
are and some of his other views, few commentators have been willing to take them
at face value. In this paper, we examine these indications of realism, and then
propose a way to render them compatible with things in themselves being
unknowable. The key move is to distinguish between being aware of something and
having knowledge of it. Kant made this distinction a centrepiece of his treatment
of awareness of self. Did it also enter his thinking about awareness of objects?
Kant's dominant view of the sensible foundation of knowledge is that we are
immediately aware of nothing but our own representations. However, as Paul Guyer
has so richly documented, a streak of direct realism can also be found in his
work from time to time, a streak that would seem to be in considerable tension
with the official view. In the first Critique, this streak of realism shows up
most clearly in the Refutation of Idealism: he tells us at one point that we must
have "an immediate awareness of the existence of other things outside me" (B276),
of "an external thing distinct from all my representations" (Bxli), being careful
in these statements to include both the empirical sense of externality, being
located in space (`outside me', `external thing') and the transcendental sense
(`other things', i.e. things other than myself, which are `distinct from all my
representations').

In the first Critique the Refutation of Idealism is given in two parts. In
addition to the section so named, it is taken up in a long footnote appended to
the new Preface. There Kant tells us that he was not happy with some of the
details of the official argument and asks that certain passages in the footnote
be substituted. I will treat the original argument and the long supplementary
footnote together.

The central argument of the Refutation runs as follows.(1)

First, "I am aware of my own existence as determined in time" (B275). What he
means by "determined in time" is unclear in the Refutation, but gets clarified in
the footnote. He means;

the application of the apparatus of location
in time to myself in any way whatsoever:
recognizing earlier and later stages of myself and
combining them, comparing the time of events in
me to the time of other events, locating
myself in time, and so on.

Secondly, I do not determine myself in time on the basis of anything represented
to me about myself. When I am aware of myself as subject of experience,
determinations of time are not represented at all. This form of self-awareness is

a merely intellectual representation of the spontaneity of the thinking subject.
This `I' has not, therefore the least predicate of intuition, which as permanent,
might serve as correlate for the determination of time in inner sense -- in the
manner in which, for instance, impenetrability serves in our empirical intuition
of matter [B278].

Thus, if I am going to determine my own existence in time, I could only do it via
the contents of inner sense. In any case, my temporal apparatus can be applied at
all only to intuitions, only to something that has a manifold, a multiplicity of
items (Bxl). For me to be able to apply temporal predicates to myself, therefore,
I must do so via applying it to intuitions. For this, however, not just any old
intuitions will do; mere multiplicity is not enough.

To apply temporal predicates, we must also be able to identify
change. To identify change, however, we must be able to
identify something as persisting through the change --
we must be able to identify something permanent.
For this, awareness of the contents of inner sense
can serve no better than awareness of self as subject.

Moreover, and this is a third and key move, by themselves and cut off from things
other than ourselves (Bxxxix fn.), neither representations nor any contents of a
representation could do any better at representing permanence.

... the representation of [the permanent] may be very transitory and variable
like all our other representations, not excepting those of matter, it yet refers
to something permanent. The latter must therefore be an external thing distinct
from all my representations ... [Bxli; my emphasis].

Our representations are constantly changing; indeed, they cease altogether for a
number of hours each night.

Therefore, the representation of permanence cannot
consist in anything permanent in representations.
Instead, from the contents of various representations
we must somehow extract something that we can
treat as a representation of a persisting object.

If this object were merely a property of myself, however, it would have no
permanence either. Therefore, an object could be represented as permanent only if
it is "an external thing distinct from all my representations" (Bxli);
I must be aware of at least some thing that
is neither a representation nor myself.

"In other words, the awareness of my existence
is at the same time an immediate awareness of
the existence of other things outside me" (B276).

At least some of the intentional objects of my representations must tell me of
the existence of real, independently-existing objects. QED. Kant is now
advocating some form of direct realism.(2)

http://www.carleton.ca/~abrook/REFUT-ID.htm

---------------------------------------------

Is there anything to the argument of the Refutation? It is hard to tell. Even if
we grant that objects of representations have no permanence, why are they not
able to represent permanence unless they represent something other in the
transcendental sense than oneself? Kant says nothing to help us. Perhaps he is
confusing objects of representation containing no permanence, in the sense of not
being permanent, with them not being able to represent permanence. Whatever, for
the argument of the Refutation, Kant must show that representations cannot
represent permanence by themselves. There are other controversial premises, too,
but here I do not intend to examine Kant's argument. Instead, I want to focus on
the realist conclusion. What are its implications? Can it be squared with other
things in the critical philosophy, in particular the doctrine of the
unknowability of things in themselves?

For Kant did not give one inch on the unknowability of the noumenal in the second
edition. Nor, for that matter, does he ever say that he is abandoning the idea
that we are aware only of our own representations. So what are we to make of the
new realism? Can having immediate awareness of "an external thing distinct from
all my representations" be squared with the rest of the critical philosophy?

To begin our search, notice first that the argument of the Refutation is by no
means unanticipated in the first edition, though many seem to believe the
opposite. Only the location, some details of the structure, and of course the
conclusion are new. When Kant turns to the Paralogisms as a whole in the first
edition, immediately after the discussion of the fourth Paralogism, he says:

... the appearance to outer sense has something fixed or abiding which supplies a
substratum to its transitory determinations ..., whereas time, which is the sole
form of our inner intuition, has nothing abiding and therefore yields knowledge
only of ... change ..., not of any object that can be thereby determined. For in
what we entitle `soul' everything is in continual flux and there is nothing
abiding except ... the `I', which ... has no content, and therefore no manifold
... [A381].

Kant's argument for the first Analogy, the Principle of Permanence of Substance,
is likewise similar in structure to the argument of the Refutation. The same is
true of the argument-structure of A108. Like the Refutation, all these passages
start from self-awareness, though the Refutation starts from empirical
self-awareness of myself as determined in time, not transcendental awareness of
myself as myself, a point Allison makes.(3) Likewise, the fundamental idea in all
these passages is that I could appear to myself as I do only if my
representations have a certain character; in the case of the Refutation,
"awareness of my existence is bound up by way of identity (identisch verbunden)
with the awareness of ... something outside me" (Bxl).(4) Of course, the
Refutation reaches a stronger conclusion than the first-edition passages. It
argues that representations must represent objects external in the transcendental
sense, i.e., object genuinely other than myself, whereas the first-edition
passages argue only that objects must be located in space and time and tied
together under the Categories. Nevertheless, at least the argument-structure of
the Refutation is not a radical departure from the first edition.(5)

So what are the implications of the new doctrine? Kant's new doctrine can be
split into two: as well as the new notion that we are aware of objects other than
ourselves, there is a new concept of what a genuinely external object is like.
Unlike the discussion of the fourth Paralogism, Kant is now drawing a deep
distinction between representation of an object and at least some objects; now at
least some objects are quite distinct from our representations of them. In the
first edition, the distinction between `real objects independent of our
representations' and `intentional objects whose existence depends on our
representations' depended merely on our passivity to the former and denseness of
causal integration. Now it takes on some real strength.

With this change seems to go a change in Kant's conception of matter. In the
first edition, Kant treated matter as a mere feature of appearances -- a feature
that consists of the objects of these appearances having extension,
impenetrability, cohesion, and motion (A358) -- and contrasted it with things as
they actually are (A268=B324).
Matter is with [the transcendental idealist], therefore, only a species of
representations (intuition), which are called external, not as standing in
relation to objects in themselves external, but because they relate perceptions
to the space in which all things are external to one another, while yet the space
itself is in us [A370]

What the `substrate' (A350) of matter might be like, what "inwardly belongs to
it" (A277=B333, a nice Leibnizian term), is hidden from us. All we can be aware
of are its effects on our representations. In the Refutation, this doctrine of
matter undergoes a transformation. Having argued that we must have immediate
awareness of something other than ourselves that is permanent, Kant says in Note
2. that "... we have nothing permanent ... save only matter" (B278, his
emphasis). He then gives the earth and the sun as his example -- we can see the
sun move by comparing it to the earth's permanence. To our immense frustration,
this elusive hint is all Kant gives us, but it is enough to indicate that he now
seems to believe that matter exists independently of us.(6)

Must Kant also abandon or modify his doctrine of the ideality of space? This is
the doctrine that space has no extra-mental existence. Though it might still be
us who impose spatial matrices, it would surely be utterly unmotivated now to
continue to insist that things as they are could not have spatial properties. If
so, the treasured distinction of the first edition between being external to me
in space (a state compatible with being a property of me) and being an object
other than me should disappear, too. Unfortunately, Kant gives us nothing to
allow us to pursue these questions further, not in the first Critique at least.

So let us turn to the final question I will consider: Can the new view be squared
with the doctrine of the unknowability of things as they are? One way to solve
the problem would be to construe the new claims about awareness of `other things
outside me' as falling within transcendental idealism. This would immediately
solve the problem, and is the approach Allison takes: he construes the new
awareness as merely a new application of the general doctrine of Kant's mentioned
earlier, that we are aware of only representations (hereafter OR, for `only
representations').(7) Guyer takes Kant's realist pronouncements more seriously,
quoting his saying that we have an "intellectual intuition" of "other things
outside me" which is "not a mere representation of them in space" (i.e. not
intuitional). Despite this, Guyer cannot bring himself to suggest that Kant could
contradict OR any more than Allison. In Guyer's view, Kant is merely claiming
that we must presuppose "that there are external objects", not that we must be
immediately aware of them; our representations do not actually present objects
other than oneself, they just presuppose such objects.(8) So let us ask: Why does
even a commentator as sensitive to the realist strain in Kant as Guyer refuse to
accept his realist pronouncements at face value? What makes him foist such a
complicated and implausible account on Kant?

I do not think that it could be merely because the new pronouncements are
inconsistent with OR. OR is not only extraordinarily implausible, it has caused
no end of mischief in the history of philosophy. Any reason to think that Kant
edged away from it at some points in his career would be a reason to rejoice.
Rather, I think the reason has to be that the new doctrine seems to be so
blatantly inconsistent with the doctrine of the unknowability of the noumenal.
Our task is to see if that is so.

Though it has been little remarked upon in the literature, Kant made a
distinction between being aware of something and having knowledge of it that is
vital to the question before us. Most of the time the distinction arose in
connection with awareness of self of a certain kind, so let us first explore it
in that context. In the first edition, he says that we can denote the self
"without noting in it any quality whatsoever" (A355). In the second edition, he
speaks of an "awareness of self" that is "very far from being a knowledge of the
self" (B158), and that we are aware of ourselves "not as we appear, or as we are,
but only that we are" (B157). Kant seems to be invoking exactly the same
non-knowledge but still immediate awareness of the self in the long footnote: "I
am aware of my existence in time ... , and this is more than to be aware merely
of my representations" (Bxl, my emphasis). Now entertain an interesting if
necessarily speculative idea: suppose Kant applied the same analysis to awareness
of things other than the self? Suppose he distinguished immediate awareness of
objects other than oneself from knowledge of them, too? If so, he could have his
new claims about our immediate awareness of them without violating his old view
that we have no knowledge of them. There is a bit of evidence to support this
speculation, though not much -- Kant makes a few statements that point to it.

In the long footnote, Kant puts his new idea in a surprisingly large number of
different ways. Sometimes he puts it in exactly the way we have been examining:
"the determination of my existence in time is possible only through the existence
of actual things which I perceive outside me" (B275-6). Sometimes he puts it in a
way that does not actually imply direct realism at all: we must have "awareness
of a relation to something outside me" (Bxl). But sometimes he puts it this way:
we must have merely immediate awareness of "the existence of other things outside
me" (B276, my emphases in all cases). This claim could easily have behind it the
distinction between being aware of something and knowing anything about it that
we have just explored in connection with awareness of self.

As an exception to any two-world picture of phenomena and noumena, this new view
would be drastic; it would be a death sentence for OR. If we are immediately
aware of the world as it is, the idea that the world as it is never appears in
any way in our representations has to go. Neither implication seems to me to be
fatal for a suggestion that Kant might have held, or at least have been working
his way toward, the new view.

In fact, in one respect, the Refutation may go further with immediate awareness
of things as they are than even the other second edition passages just cited did.
In the Refutation we are not just aware of objects other than ourselves, we even
have one piece of knowledge of them: that they are permanent, some of them
anyway. This would mean that on this one point, our representations of the world
would actually represent the world as it is. Walker has expressed a fear that
allowing immediate awareness of the self would open a flood-gate to knowledge of
the noumenal. So far as awareness of self is concerned, I think his worry is
groundless.(9) With respect to the statements in the Refutation and the long
footnote we have been examining, however, he may well have a point. Even here,
Kant could still cogently insist, we have no immediate, unconstructed awareness
of any other property of anything, so have no other knowledge of their
properties.

Is there any reason to think that Kant might have applied his notion of a kind of
`transcendental' reference to self in which no qualities are noted to things
other than oneself? One reason is that for Kant, awareness of self and awareness
of things other than self are symmetrical. If so, and if there is a form of
reference to self that requires no description or concept-application, then Kant
could well have made use of a notion of a similar form of reference to objects.
On the reading of the Refutation that I am suggesting, reference to self and
reference to objects other than the self would display just this symmetry. In
both cases, we may have no knowledge of the things to which we refer, knowledge
of them as they are, but in both cases our acts of reference would refer to and
thus make us aware of the objects themselves, not just representations of them.
Of oneself these acts would yield a `bare consciousness' (A346=B404) of the self
that is "very far from being a knowledge of the self" (B158). Of things other
than oneself, they would yield "an immediate awareness of the existence of other
things outside me" (B276) that would be equally far from being a knowledge of
them.

The distinction between being aware of something and knowing anything of it
points to an important theory of reference. On this distinction, reference could
`reach all the way' to its object, yet description could remain an act of
constructive concept-application, even to the point of the constructor not being
able to know whether it is ever accurate -- reference could reach a real object,
free of potentially distorting judgment or description, and yet all possible room
for description to be `theory-laden' and otherwise influenced by the cognitive
apparatus of the mind doing the describing could be preserved. When Kant called a
certain kind of reference transcendental designation (A355), he may even have had
something like this in mind; when reference `notes no qualities', is
non-ascriptive, it would be transcending the apperceptive, synthesizing
activities of the mind. Once such an act of non-ascriptive reference is made, it
would immediately be surrounded by an `umbra' of cognitive manipulations, of
course: the undescribed object to which reference has been made would be judged,
described, propositional attitudes would be taken up to it, theories could be
formed about it, and so on. It would be at this stage but only at the this stage
that we would enter the realm of knowledge. For one thing, knowledge requires the
possibility of error -- incorrect judgment or description -- and there would be
no possibility of this kind of error in an act of non-ascriptive reference.(10)

It would also be at this stage that we would enter the realm of what cannot be
checked against things as they are, where we could now understand the latter to
be the objects to which we have achieved reference. In fact, the possibilities
for descriptive error within this theory of reference are vast, so vast that even
something as basic as how I carve the world up into objects could be in error.
But what would not be in error when I have achieved reference is a belief that I
am referring to and therefore am aware of something -- something other than
myself. This sort of theory of reference is quite different from the picture
generally accepted in Anglo-American philosophy since WWII, in which reference is
always under a description. However, it or a view like it does have contemporary
proponents, including Putnam, Kripke, and the later Wittgenstein. It is at the
heart of most paradigm-based semantics theories. If I am right, once again Kant
proves to be more than a cultural artefact, a mere earlier stage in our
intellectual history.

http://www.carleton.ca/~abrook/REFUT-ID.htm

---------------------------------------

KANT AND HIS REFUTATION OF IDEALISM*

36. Kant's refutation of idealism in the second edition of the Critic of the Pure
Reason has been often held to be inconsistent with his main position or even to
be knowingly sophistical. It appears to me to be one of the numerous passages in
that work which betray an elaborated and vigorous analysis, marred in the
exposition by the attempt to state the argument more abstractly and
demonstratively than the thought would warrant.

In "Note 1," Kant says that his argument beats idealism at its own game. How is
that? The idealist says that all that we know immediately, that is, otherwise
than inferentially, is what is present in the mind; and things out of the mind
are not so present. The whole idealist position turns upon this conception of the
present.

37. The idealistic argument turns upon the assumption that certain things are
absolutely "present," namely what we have in mind at the moment, and that nothing
else can be immediately, that is, otherwise than inferentially known. When this
is once granted, the idealist has no difficulty in showing that that external
existence which we cannot know immediately we cannot know, at all. Some of the
arguments used for this purpose are of little value, because they only go to show
that our knowledge of an external world is fallible; now there is a world of
difference between fallible knowledge and no knowledge.

However, I think it would have to be admitted as a matter of logic that if we
have no immediate perception of a non-ego, we can have no reason to admit the
supposition of an existence so contrary to all experience as that would in that
case be. 38. But what evidence is there that we can immediately know only what is
"present" to the mind? The idealists generally treat this as self-evident; but,
as Clifford jestingly says, " it is evident " is a phrase which only means " we
do not know how to prove."

The proposition that we can immediately perceive only what is present seems to me
parallel to that other vulgar prejudice that "a thing cannot act where it is
not." An opinion which can only defend itself by such a sounding phrase is pretty
sure to be wrong. That a thing cannot act where it is not is plainly an induction
from ordinary experience, which shows no forces except such as act through the
resistance of materials, with the exception of gravity which, owing to its being
the same for all bodies,does not appear in ordinary experience like a force. But
further experience shows that attractions and repulsions are the universal types
of forces. A thing may be said to be wherever it acts; but the notion that a
particle is absolutely present in one part of space and absolutely absent from
all the rest of space is devoid of all foundation.

In like manner, the idea that we can immediately perceive only what is present
seems to be founded on our ordinary experience |p17 that we cannot recall and
reexamine the events of yesterday nor know otherwise than by inference what is to
happen tomorrow. Obviously, then, the first move toward beating idealism at its
own game is to remark that we apprehend our own ideas only as flowing in time,
and since neither the future nor the past, however near they may be, is present,
there is as much difficulty in conceiving our perception of what passes within us
as in conceiving external perception. If so, replies the idealist, instead of
giving up idealism we must go still further to nihilism. Kant does not notice
this retort; but it is clear from his footnote that he would have said: Not so;
for it is impossible we should so much as think we think in time unless we do
think in time; or rather, dismissing blind impossibility, the mere imagination of
time is a clear perception of the past.

Hamilton* stupidly objects to Reid's phrase "immediate memory"; but an immediate,
intuitive consciousness of time clearly exists wherever time exists. But once
grant immediate knowledge in time, and what becomes of the idealist theory that
we immediately know only the present? For the present can contain no time. 39.
But Kant does not pursue this line of thought along the straight road to its
natural result; because he is a sort of idealist himself. Namely, though not
idealistic as to the substance of things, he is partially so in regard to their
accidents. Accordingly, he introduces his distinction of the variable and the
persistent (beharrlich), and seeks to show that the only way we can apprehend our
own flow of ideas, binding them together as a connected flow, is by attaching
them to an immediately perceived persistent externality. He refuses to inquire
how that immediate external consciousness is possible, though such an inquiry
might have probed the foundations of his system.

http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/peirce/exexwo_90.htm

-----------------------------------

§5. The Refutation of Idealism and the Distinction Between Perception and
Imagination

§5.1 Introduction

According to Kant, the argument in the Refutation of Idealism is supposed to
"establish that we have experience and not merely imagination of outer things".
This focus on the distinction between perception (experience of outer things) and
imagination is easy to overlook because of the apparently disparate notions upon
which the argument draws: consciousness of self, time determination, and the
immediacy of inner and outer sense. Kant claims that the refutation is directed
against the problematic idealism that he attributes to Descartes, and not against
the dogmatic idealism of Berkeley. Problematic idealism, according to Kant, holds
that the existence of things outside of me is "doubtful and indemonstrable",
whereas dogmatic idealism holds that the existence of things outside me is
impossible.

The two idealisms are surely distinct. Nonetheless, Kant recognized how easily
problematic idealism can lead to dogmatism. Both use cases of illusion and
hallucination to make their arguments. Problematic idealism uses illusion and
hallucination to establish the unreliability of inference from the subjective
qualitative character of mental states to objective properties of objects.
Dogmatic idealism uses illusion and hallucination to establish that the contents
of mental states remain identical regardless of the existence of external
objects. A principled distinction between perception and imagination undercuts
both sorts of idealism. Although Kant addresses problematic idealism in the
refutation, he leaves dogmatic idealism to a note in the unrevised B edition,
where he says that the question it raises is "whether we have only an inner sense
but no outer one, rather merely outer imagination." But this is the question that
the refutation is intended to answer against the problematic idealist - of
whether we have experience and not merely imagination of outer things. If the
refutation undercuts both problematic and dogmatic idealism, why does Kant direct
it only against problematic idealism?

For two reasons. First, he thinks that the Transcendental Analytic has already
refuted dogmatic idealism by establishing that space is not a property of things
in themselves. In other words, Kant holds that transcendental idealism, with its
distinction between the empirically real and the transcendentally ideal undercuts
dogmatic idealism by making spatio-temporal experience a necessary feature of our
experience of empirical objects. Second, the distinction between perception and
imagination that undercuts both idealisms can be made, according to Kant, only by
denying the central theses of problematic idealism: one, that the immediate
object of experience is an object of inner sense; the other that all perception
is mediated by inference from the immediate object of inner sense to external
objects. "The proof that is demanded [for a refutation of problematic
idealism].cannot be accomplished unless one can prove that even our inner
experience, undoubted by Descartes, is possible only under the presupposition of
outer experience."

Kant refutes problematic idealism not by establishing the reliability of
inference from the immediate objects of inner sense to external objects, but by
denying that the only immediate objects of experience are objects of inner sense,
and by denying that perception is inferentially mediated by objects of inner
sense. Significantly, Kant does not deny that perception is mediated. To do so
would be inconsistent with the rest of his project: perception, as empirical
representation, is possible only through the synthesis of the imagination, the
unity of apperception and the application of the categories, which are processes
of mediation. When Kant claims that perception is immediate, he is denying that
perception is mediated in the way that the problematic idealist thinks of
mediation, namely by inference based on the intrinsic properties of the mental
state and of the object that it represents.

In other words, Kant's empirical realism is a kind of direct realism, as defined
in chapter two. In addition, the direct realism advocated in the refutation, like
Reid's realism, is bound up with the notion that the content of perception is
externally individuated. Kant denies the central theses of problematic idealism
by showing that perception, or outer sense, is made possible only by the
existence of objects that are distinct from our perception of them and by showing
that imagination is dependent on perception. Kant shows that perception is a kind
of representation that depends on the existence of the object which it
represents - it is a de re, or demonstrative representation. An imagination, on
the other hand, is not the kind of representation which depends for on the
existence of the object which it represents - there need be no unicorn before me
in order for me to imagine or hallucinate a unicorn.

§5.2 The Refutation of Idealism

The main argument in the Refutation of Idealism can be broken down into the
following premises :

RI1) "I am conscious of my existence as determined in time. "

RI2) According to the first analogy, all time-determination presupposes the
perception of a persistent thing.

RI3) The persistent thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in me.

RI4) The perception of the persistent thing depends on the persistent thing and
not on my representing the persisting thing.

RI5) \ My consciousness of my existence as determined in time is possible only if
I perceive something that persists outside of me.

Premise RI1 is shared by Kant and the sort of idealist against whom the
refutation is directed. Kant and the problematic idealist agree that I experience
my own mental states and that I experience them as my own, over time. The
problematic idealist, however, confers epistemological priority on inner
experience, which is certain because it is immediate; it is not the product of
inference. Putative outer experience, however, is possible only mediately by
inference from mental states given immediately in inner experience. The
problematic idealist, then, does not merely agree to the premise that I am
conscious of my existence as determined in time; she also holds that such
consciousness has special epistemological status, which is used to undermine the
epistemological status of perception. The refutation will show that this position
is internally inconsistent because the problematic idealist cannot hold RI1 while
also holding that all our perceptions may be mere imaginations. As Kant writes,
"the game that idealism plays has with greater justice been turned against it,"
and as Margaret Wilson comments:

"Kant's conclusion could be rephrased as follows: "I know I exist in time"
entails (in conjunction with other knowable premises) that I have or have had
veridical perceptions of a permanent entity in space. Such a conclusion could be
said to 'answer' the Cartesian by establishing that, contrary to what the
arguments from hallucination, etc. seem to suggest, there is actually an
inconsistency in maintaining the Cartesian assumptions about self-knowledge in
conjunction with the view that all one's 'outer' perceptions might be
non-veridical "

Premise RI2, that all time determination presupposes a thing persistent in
perception is supposed to have been established by the first analogy, which I
shall not examine in detail. Roughly, the argument is that in order for me to be
conscious of my existence in time, I must be conscious of changes in my
representations because time is not an object of perception and
time-determination is perceived as change. But to perceive change, one must
perceive it relative to something that persists. Thus, this 'something that
persists' must also be an object of perception: this is the 'persistent in
perception'.
Premise RI3, that the persistent thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in
me, is stated by Kant in the unrevised B edition as "This persisting thing,
however, cannot be something in me, since my own existence in time can first be
determined only through this persistent thing." In the revised Preface to this
edition, Kant replaces this with the following:

"This persisting thing, however, cannot be an intuition in me. For all grounds of
determination of my existence that can be encountered in me are representations,
and as such require something persistent that is distinct even from them, in
relation to which their change, thus my existence in the time in which they
change, can be determined."

This premise rules out the possibility that the persisting thing that I perceive
is a representation in me - an object of inner sense. The argument in the first
analogy that supports premise RI2 requires that in order for me to be conscious
of my self as determined in time, I must be conscious of a change in my
representations, but I cannot be conscious of this change save by perceiving a
persisting thing against which the change in my representation can be measured.
Perceiving something permanent in perception, then, is a precondition for
consciousness of changing representations. If the persisting thing were a
representation, my consciousness of it would require the perception of a
persisting thing that is not a representation, and so ad infinitum. Consciousness
of the persisting thing (perception) is prior both to consciousness of
representations and to consciousness of self, which means that consciousness of
the persisting thing cannot be consciousness of a representation.

The substituted remark from the B Preface also makes clear what Kant intends by
the spatial metaphors in me and outside me. The persisting thing that I perceive
is a thing outside me in the sense that it is distinct from my representing it.
The persisting thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in me, because the
perception - which allows me to become aware of the succession of
representations, and my determination in time - must be a representation of
something distinct from my representation of it. Its esse cannot be percipi. But
no mere representation is distinct from my representation of it - the esse of
representation is percipi - and so the persisting thing that I perceive cannot be
a representation. And, finally, no representation can itself be the persisting
thing because representations themselves do not persist over time - they are
necessarily fleeting.

Premise RI4 states that the perception of the persistent thing depends for its
existence on that thing and not upon my representing it. This premise requires
that the perception of the persisting thing is a de re or demonstrative form of
representation: "Thus the perception of this persistent thing is possible only
through a thing outside me and not through the mere representation of a thing
outside me." In other words, when I perceive the persisting thing I represent not
'that there is a persisting thing outside me' but, about that persisting thing
outside me, that it is thus and so. The conclusion of the refutation is that my
consciousness of my existence as determined in time is possible only if I
perceive something that persists outside me. It is important to note that for
Kant perception of something that persists outside me is distinct from perception
that something persists outside me: only the former is sufficient for
consciousness of self in time. In the latter sort of representation, if one
succeeds in picking out an object, one will have done so only by having given a
successful description of the object, and such description can occur in the
absence of any object which corresponds to it. The existence of the latter sort
of representation, however, depends on its picking out an object, and it picks
out its object directly, without the aid of description.

§5.3 Immediacy

The argument in the refutation demonstrates that "inner experience, undoubted by
Descartes, is possible only under the presupposition of outer experience" by
showing that perception of external objects - outer experience - is required for
consciousness of my self in time - inner experience. But does it show, as Kant
claims, that "outer experience is really immediate.so that inner experience
itself is consequently only mediate."? Kant says that inner sense is mediate
because it is made possible only if we have outer sense. This use of 'mediate'
indicates something like 'presupposes something else' while 'immediate' suggests
'is presupposed by something else'. Kant is merely making reference to the form
of the refutation as a transcendental argument. The problematic idealist doubts
that which makes possible what she regards as most certain. Call this use of
'mediate' and 'immediate' the 'presuppositional' use. Kant's claim that inner
sense is mediate uses 'mediate' presuppositionally; thus, he should not be read
as saying that inner experience is the product of inference from outer
experience.

On the other hand, the immediacy of outer experience is not merely a claim about
the form of the refutation; it is claim about the de re/demonstrative nature of
perception as revealed in premise RI4. Kant is not merely claiming that outer
sense is presupposed by, and thus prior to, inner sense, but also that outer
sense is not mediated in the way that the problematic idealist insists it must
be. In Note 1, Kant provides the argument against which his refutation is
directed.

Idealism assumed that the only immediate experience is inner experience, and that
from that outer things could only be inferred, but, as in any case in which one
infers from given effects to determinate causes, only unreliably, since the cause
of the representations that we perhaps falsely ascribe to outer things can also
lie in us.

The conclusion is left unstated, but the full argument is as follows:
PI1) The only immediate objects of experience are objects of inner sense.
PI2) The existence of objects outside us can be known only mediately, by
inference from the immediate objects of experience.
PI3) Such inferences from the immediate objects of experience to things known
only mediately by them are unreliable.
PI4) Unreliable inferences cannot be the basis of knowledge.
PI5) \ We can have no knowledge of the existence of objects outside us.

According to the idealist, whether something is immediate or mediate depends on
whether it is the product of inference. Call this the 'inferential' use. After
Kant presents the problematic idealist's argument, he makes it clear that the
refutation is intended to undercut premise PI1, that the only immediate objects
of experience are objects of inner sense. "Yet here it is proved that outer
experience is really immediate.." The kind of immediacy referred to in premise
PI1 can't be undermined by showing that inner experience is made possible only by
outer experience. One could hold premise PI2, that the existence of objects
outside us can be known only mediately, by inference from the immediate objects
of experience, while also holding the conclusion of the refutation that if we
never experienced objects outside us there would be no immediate objects of
experience. One could hold, for example, that we experience external objects by
experiencing their effects; that these effects are the only immediate object of
experience; that without external objects there would be no immediate object of
experience. Kant must claim that outer experience is immediate in the
non-inferential sense, not just the presuppositional sense, in order to undermine
premise PI1.

Kant rejects premise PI2, that the only way we can know external objects is by
inference from objects of inner sense. But he also rejects an even stronger
thesis, holding that in perception we cannot make inferences to outer objects
from inspecting objects of inner sense. Objects of inner sense simply lack the
intrinsic properties required to form a first-person inferential basis for
judgments about objects of outer sense. Objects of inner sense lack the
properties characteristic of objects of outer sense: unity, necessary connection
with other objects, and so on. The relation between objects of inner sense and
objects of outer sense can never be an internal relation - a relation based on
intrinsic properties of the relata.

Whatever relation objects of inner sense could bear to objects of outer sense
would be determined not by the properties of the relata but by the forms of
intuition and understanding that provide the only rules by which such connections
can be made.

"Combination does not lie in the objects, however, and cannot as it were be
borrowed from them through perception.
Thus we ourselves bring into the appearances that order and regularity in them
that we call nature, and moreover we would not be able to find it there if we, or
the nature of our mind, had not originally put it there. "

In other words, whatever relation objects of inner sense bear to objects of outer
sense, it must be an external relation afforded by cognition itself. It is
precisely because the objects of perception are determined by rules that we
generate - by external relations - that perception is direct rather than
indirect. Perception is a representational relation between items connected to
each other not internally but by a rule that we apply. Perception represents
objects not by inferences made from the intrinsic character of mental items but
by having been connected according to an external rule.

Kant rejects premise PI1 in the idealist's argument - that the only immediate
objects of experience are the objects of inner sense - because he regards the
objects of perception as immediate in the sense that we experience them
non-inferentially by a de re/demonstrative representation. That outer experience
is immediate in the non-inferential sense follows from the kind of representation
that perception must be in order for it to enable consciousness of
representations and of self. It is the kind of representation, as Kant says, that
is "possible only through a thing outside me and not through a mere
representation of a thing outside me." It is also the kind of representation that
takes an object not in virtue of the intrinsic properties of the representation
and the object but in virtue of their extrinsic properties which are conferred by
cognition according to a rule. This kind of representation - a de
re/demonstrative representation - is not and cannot be a product of inference
alone.

§5.4 The Distinction Between Perception and Imagination

Recall that the refutation is intended to "establish that we have experience and
not merely imagination of outer things". As has been shown, Kant regards the
experience of outer things as immediate. In the notes that follow the refutation,
Kant addresses the question whether the immediate experience of outer things,
i.e. perception, is possible. In a footnote to Note 1, he identifies two
questions: (a) whether immediate perception is possible with (b) whether our
consciousness of outer things counts as experience rather than mere imagination:

"The immediate consciousness of the existence of outer things is not presupposed
but proved in the preceding theorem [the Refutation of Idealism], whether we have
insight into the possibility of this consciousness or not. The question about the
latter would be whether we have only an inner sense but no outer one, rather
merely outer imagination. But it is clear that in order for us even to imagine
something as external, i.e., to exhibit it to sense in intuition, we must already
have an outer sense."

Here, and in Note 3, Kant addresses the problematic idealist's move from PI3 and
PI4 to PI5, from the claim that for any given perception, inference from
immediate sensory experience to the object of the perception is unreliable, to
the claim that we can have no knowledge of objects outside of us, a distinction
exploited by the dogmatic idealist. Kant recognizes that this move allows that
our experience could remain just as it is even if no objects existed outside of
us. He must maintain the position argued in premise RI4 that perception is a kind
of de re/demonstrative representation, while allowing for the possibility of
illusion and hallucination. But it is this possibility that the problematic
idealist exploits.

The problematic idealist asks: if, for any given perceptual experience, our
experience could remain the same, whether or not the object of the perceptual
experience is an object existing outside us, why suppose that perception is
reliable? The dogmatic idealist asks: if, for any given perceptual experience,
our experience could remain the same, whether or not the object of the perceptual
experience is an object existing outside us, why suppose that any perceptual
experiences imply such external objects? Kant's answer to these questions is
threefold. First, consistent with the refutation of idealism, he maintains that
perception is a kind of de re/demonstrative representation, the kind that depends
upon the existence of the object it represents. Second, he holds that illusion
and hallucination are not de re/demonstrative representations, and so are not
species of perception. Third, and most important he argues that illusion and
hallucination are dependent on perception. Once again, Kant plays idealism's game
against itself by showing that illusion and hallucination, which the idealist
uses to undermine the reliability and possibility of perception, actually
presuppose perception.

Hallucinations and illusions, like perceptions, are representations, and like
perceptions they represent their objects as external. Any theory of perception
must address this shared feature of perception, illusion and hallucination. Kant
acknowledges that imagination can represent objects as external, but he denies
that it can represent external objects. This is why premise RI4 of the refutation
is concerned to distinguish de re/demonstrative representation from descriptive
representation. A representation that there is a persisting thing is not
sufficient for time determination; only a representation of a persisting thing
makes possible the perception of change required for consciousness of self in
time. In Note 3 to the refutation, Kant writes,

"From the fact that the existence of outer objects is required for the
possibility of a determinate consciousness of our self it does not follow that
every intuitive representation of outer things includes at the same time their
existence, for that may well be the effect of the imagination (in dreams as well
as in delusions). "

In other words, some of our intuitive representations of outer things do not
depend upon the existence of the objects that they represent - they are not de
re/demonstrative representations. Imagination represents some of its objects as
external. But these are dreams and delusions, effects of the imagination, not
cases of perception. Imaginations and perceptions are different sorts of
representation: imagination represents objects regardless of the existence of the
objects that it represents; perception, as Kant writes, is "possible only through
the actuality of outer objects."

Finally, imagination presupposes perception. Kant gives two arguments to support
this claim. The first appears in Note 3: ".but [dreams and delusions] are
possible merely through the reproduction of previous outer perceptions, which, as
has been shown, are possible only through the actuality of outer objects." In
other words, dreams, illusions and hallucination are representations assembled
from previous outer perceptions through reproduction and synthesis. Furthermore,
the representations that are reproduced are perceptions - representations of
external objects rather than mere representations as of an external object; thus,
there would be no dreams or delusions without perceptions.

This differs from the familiar empiricist position on imagination in a striking
way: Kant is not claiming that in dreams and delusions we jumble together
previous sensations or objects of inner sense; he is claiming that we reproduce
and synthesize previous perceptions - representations of outer objects. This is
made clear by how Kant regards the objects of inner sense and sensations, which
do not represent objects as external. A sensation of red differs from a
perception of a red thing primarily because the former represents nothing
external. No reproduction and synthesis of sensations or objects of inner sense
could account for the fact that we represent the objects of dreams and delusions
as external. Only a relation to some thing distinct from representation can
afford the kind of consciousness required to represent something as external;
only the externalist character of perception can account for the phenomenal
character of dreams and delusions. When in dreams and delusions we represent
objects as external, we make a mistake, but this mistake is possible only because
we are able to get it right some of the time. As Carl Posy writes in
"Transcendental Idealism and Causality", "Kant, of course, clearly holds that
sensory information alone would never suffice to provide the "dignity of relation
to an object" (A197)"

Kant's second argument for the priority of perception over imagination makes
clear how different his conception is from the empiricist's. In a footnote to
Note 1, Kant writes:

"But it is clear that in order for us even to imagine something as external,
i.e., to exhibit it to sense in intuition, we must already have an outer sense,
and by this means immediately distinguish the mere receptivity of an outer
intuition from the spontaneity that characterizes every imagination. For even to
merely imagine an outer sense would itself annihilate the faculty of intuition,
which is to be determined through the imagination. "

If imagination were able on its own to represent some of its objects as external,
i.e., without our ever having been effected by an external object, the faculty of
intuition would be otiose. Kant is not claiming that we never imagine the objects
we take to be external, nor that we never hallucinate or suffer illusions.
Rather, he claims that the ability to hallucinate and suffer illusions depends
upon the ability to perceive. As Arthur Collins writes in Possible Experience:
Understanding Kant's Critique of Pure Reason:

"In cases of seeming perception where there is no apprehension of something that
exists outside the mind, the episode is just an illusion and not an apprehension
of a spatial reality that is somehow also an inner reality. The aberration
consists in the absence (nonexistence) of the outer spatial thing that seems to
be present and not in the presence of an inner spatial thing. Since there are no
inner spatial things, we cannot advert to such things in order to explain what
happens in aberrant perception. It is desirous to keep in focus Kant's conception
of imagination as "thought of an object that is not present."

Since objects are required for the possibility of experience, we can say that
only perceivers hallucinate, only a subject who can really experience an object
can seem to experience one. "

We can perceive because the imagination can apprehend, reproduce and synthesize,
because our self-consciousness allows us to represent objects as unities and
because the categories enable us to make the judgments that make possible the
very distinction between an external and internal object. Imagination of an
object as external requires these same cognitive conditions. In order to
hallucinate an oasis in a desert, I must apprehend, reproduce and synthesize the
impressions that make up the phenomenal content of the hallucination. In order to
move my body towards the hallucination and drink its hallucinatory water, I must
represent not only the oasis but myself and my relation to it. In order to see
the oasis as an oasis, and regard it (wrongly) as something that may save my
life, I must apply the categories. Although the conditions that make perception
possible make dreams and delusions possible as well, the conditions themselves -
particularly consciousness of myself as determined in time - are possible only
because perception is not the same as imagination. If perception were
imagination, if it merely represented objects as external rather than
representing external objects, neither perception nor imagination would be
possible. Only on the possibility of perceptions, which provide a demonstrative
reference to external objects, can one account for the fact that illusions,
dreams and hallucinations purport to represent external objects. As William
Harper writes,

"The Refutation of Idealism argues that only outer appearances can provide
demonstrative reference to content that can determine a truth of the matter about
what is to count as my subjective empirical self. On this view only insofar as
this self is determined by outer appearances - only insofar as it is pinned down
by the path of my body through a world of outer things - can it provide a subject
to which the appearances of inner sense can be attributed.

On this view the demon hypothesis in my own case is incoherent because it assumes
away the reference that is required to provide the content that could make it
count as true. "

In §1 of this chapter I argued that for Kant, the problem of perceptual
objectivity is not whether we're getting it right about the world, but whether we
're getting at a world about which we can be right (or wrong), at all. I
described Kant's notion of perceptual objectivity as representational purport.
Kant calls our perceptions objective because they aim at material, external
objects as their target. Perceptions have this target because they are formed
according to rules and norms built into our faculties, norms that specify the
conditions of 'objecthood' prior to our forming any particular perceptions of
particular objects. What makes perceptions into representations of objects for
Kant is not any quality that they have, but our forming them according to norms
that specify what it is for us to represent an object at all. I identified Kant's
central notion of objectivity with objective validity. Perceptions have objective
validity because they aim at representing objects. A perception has objective
reality only if it is applied to something of which it is true, i.e., only if the
representation purports to be about a specific object or state of affairs and is
in fact about that object or state-of-affairs. The conditions of objective
validity are conditions of the possibility of representing an object in
perception at all; they serve as conditions of objectivity prior to any actual
perceptual interaction with the world. Thus, objective validity is prior to
objective reality.

Kant's discussion of the priority of perception over imagination in the
refutation makes clear that imaginations of outer objects - dreams and
delusions - have objective validity but not objective reality, as I argued in §
4. The conditions of the possibility of representing an object in perceptions are
conditions of representational purport. Hallucinations and illusions also purport
to represent the world, and so fall under the same conditions. Hallucinations and
illusions, however, are not applied to any actual object or state of affairs of
which they could be true and so do not possess objective reality. Hallucination
and illusion seem like perceptions, but they are not perceptions because they do
not possess objective reality. That hallucinations and illusions possess
objective validity also explains why they can't be made up of mere sensations:
sensations do not posses objective validity and do not purport to be about
objects. Kant undermines idealism by distinguishing between perception and
imagination without sacrificing the phenomenological observation that
hallucinations and illusions, like perception, purport to represent the world.

§5.5 Skepticism

Kant's remarks about dreams and delusions specify what sorts of skepticism are
ruled out in the refutation. Dogmatic and problematic idealism can lead to three
different types of skepticism. All three trade on the fact that perceptions,
illusions, dreams and hallucinations purport to represent the world. The first
questions whether, for any given perception, we can distinguish it from a mere
imagination. The second questions whether perceptual experience can be the basis
of knowledge given that perception is the result of inference and that we may
infer as easily (though wrongly) to the existence of external objects from
hallucination and illusion as from perception. This skepticism follows from
problematic idealism. The third sort of skepticism questions whether all
perception is mere imagination and concludes that the existence of an external
world is explanatorily unnecessary. This skepticism follows from dogmatic
idealism. The refutation, according to Kant, rules out the second and third sorts
of skepticism, but not the first:

"Here it had to be proved only that inner experience in general is possible only
through outer experience in general. Whether this or that putative experience is
not mere imagination must be ascertained according to its particular
determinations and through its coherence with the criteria of all actual
experience. "

Like the idealists against whom Kant argues, he accepts that hallucination,
illusion and misperception purport to represent the world. He refutes the second
type of skepticism by denying that perception is mediated by inference, showing
that the immediate experience which the problematic idealist regards as epistemol
ogically prior to perception actually presupposes perception. He refutes the
third type of skepticism by denying that imagination is identical with
perception, showing that the imagination of outer objects which the dogmatic
idealist claims forms our 'perceptual' experience actually presupposes the
perception of outer objects.

The first sort of skepticism, which questions, for any given perception, whether
we can distinguish it from a mere imagination, doesn't seem to trouble Kant.
This, he says "must be ascertained according to its particular determinations and
through its coherence with the criteria of all actual experience." In other
words, if we can tell that a particular perceptual experience is actually a
perception and not merely an imagination, we will be able to do so only by
comparing it with the objects to which it appears to be related and by
determining whether the experience is coherent with the rest of our experiences.
Kant's indifference to this skeptical worry is unsurprising given that the first
Critique is less concerned with questions of the very possibility of experience
about which justificatory questions might then be raised.

http://www.lclark.edu/~rebeccac/kantskep.html

-------------------------------------

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~jlbermud/transcendental%25idealism.pdf
http://www.fordham.edu/philosophy/davenport/texts/refideal.htm
http://philarete.home.mindspring.com/philosophy/kant.html
Post by gaffo
Decarte was right with Meditations then went beyond what he could prove.
Cogito, Ergo Sum (The Circle Game) Descartes

THE CIRCLE GAME: "Descartes was a philosophical disaster!" Attacking Descate's
Cogito from within Descartes's own logical structure rather than from a modern
context.

Examining Descartes's philosophy from within its own logical structure, we see
that Descartes is unable to escape the necessity of an observer in his attempt to
find a foundation for his philosophy. As I will show, he grounds his philosophy
on the postulates of his ability to discern truth from fiction and his own
existence. Descartes foundationalist philosophy fails, as a result, because
neither the infallibility and integrity of the observer nor the observer's
existence are certain.

Descartes attempts to create a foundationalist philosophy based on a single,
undeniable truth which he knows to be "fixed and assured". He takes "I think,
therefore I am" "as the first principle of the philosophy I was seeking",
believing that this is the only truth which is necessary to found a philosophy.
His logical structure , however, relies on a second postulate. He claims that
"the capacity to judge correctly and to distinguish the true from the false is
naturally equal in all men". This postulate is more fundamental to his logical
structure than the cogito because without it, he cannot escape the skepticism of
his foundationalist structure.

Unpacking the significance of this postulate is somewhat of a metaphysical
thicket, but the effort is well rewarded. There is no question that by thinking
"I think, therefore I am", Descartes is thinking. Beyond the statement of his
existence, however, Descartes cannot form any other conclusion unless he has the
ability to discern the truth of a thought-except the conclusion that he is, there
is no method to discern a true thought from a thought implanted into his head by
an other being unless he can make the distinction himself. If he is to make any
progress in his philosophy, he must rely on this second postulate.

Even with this condition, Descartes's philosophy remains unstable. His first
postulate, the cogito, fails because it depends on the integrity of the subject,
the ego. Unlike a similar postulate of mathematics, such as x+0=x, which does not
depend on the integrity of the observer in order to be true, Descartes's
postulate is singularly tied to the subject because the subject, the "I", is an
integral part of the statement. In the postulate, the "I" must be distinct since
the cogito makes no claims about the existence of anything outside the mind.
Descartes admits, however, that the mind is subject to failings caused by the
body:

"the mind depends so much on the temperament and on the disposition of the organs
of the body, that if it is possible to find some means of rendering men as a
whole wiser and more dexterous than they have been hitherto, I believe it must be
sought in medicine".

Furthermore, the mind cannot be sure of even its own state. Descartes admits that
"there are no conclusive signs by means of which one can distinguish clearly
between being awake and being asleep". Most significantly, however, Descartes
requires the fallibility of his mind in order to prove the existence of God.
Within his proof, Descartes gives as an antecedent to his argument the
observation that "my being was not completely perfect" when it was created. But
the infallible ability to discern truth is, by nature of its indisputeability, a
form of perfection. He appears to be directly contradicting his second postulate,
the ability to discern truth from fiction. This logical breakdown within
Descartes's argument hints at a much greater problem, however.

Descartes has a problem of authorship. That he exists and that he conceives of
his existence are synonymous according to the cogito postulate. Furthermore, the
existence of anything outside of his mind depends on his own existence. He is
assured of the existence of the rest of the Universe by his perception of
thinking of it. If the observer stops observing himself, he ceases to exist,
however. Thus the reality of the Universe within Descartes's system depends on
his ability to conceive of it, which in turn requires that he exist. This
introduces a rather interesting problem in to his philosophy.

By the time he has completed his proof of the existence of God, Descartes
concludes that his own existence is dependent of the existence of God. Because he
creates a foundationalist philosophy, Descartes must believe that the laws of the
Universe are deriveable from the cogito postulate. After attempting to establish
the existence of God, however, he admits that "I have observed certain laws which
God has so established in nature and of which he has impressed such notions in
our souls". According to his postulates, all that is in Descartes's mind is the
result of the fact that he thinks, yet here he seems to be adding yet another
subject to the set of actors upon which his philosophy rests. The validity of the
claims he has already made are again questioned by further doubt over the author
of existence:

"And who can give me the assurance that this God has not arranged that there
should be no earth, no heaven, no extended body, no figure, no magnitude, or
place, and that nevertheless I should have the perception of all these things,
and the persuasion that they do not exist other than as I see them?"

Clearly, Descartes would not want to add dependency on a second subject to his
philosophy but he nonetheless accepts the notion that not all existence can be
attributed to his thoughts alone. God, he qualifies, must also have authorship:

"if the objective reality of any one of my ideas is such that I know clearly that
it is not within me, either formally or eminently, and that consequently I cannot
myself be its cause, it follows necessarily from this that I am not alone in the
world, but that there is besides some other being who exists, and who is the
cause of this idea."

It is illogical that such a being, whose existence in the Universe is dependent
on the thoughts and observations of an observer could also be the author of the
same observer's thoughts. Surely Descartes realized this but he seems to ignore
its significance. He declares "God is necessarily the author of my existence" and
so falls into a circular dependency, where his own existence is dependent on a
God whose existence in the Universe is dependent on Descartes's ability to
conceive of God and to determine the truth of such a perception. Because the
observer is thus permanently trapped within Descartes's web of logic, the entire
foundation of the structure is unsound.

With the foundation of Descartes carefully laid structure crumbling in front of
close examination, it appears, a philosophical failure. Such an evaluation is
made strong if it comes from within the logical structure that Descartes
presents. The job is easy, however, because Descartes establishes such a
dependent, recursive structure that his entire fabrication falls under its own
twisted weight.

http://www.stanford.edu/~bwark/papers/circle_game.html
Post by gaffo
Hume had a realistic outlook in not assumng a truth underneath one's
experiences.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml
http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)
"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.
If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine
"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.
"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter
"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.
"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister
"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.
"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)
"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.
"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04
"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04
"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader
RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?
BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.
RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?
BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04
"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04
"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03
"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03
"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001
"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."
"He threatens not the United States."
"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."
'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Tell me Mr. Solipsist, if the world doesn't exist why have you decided to be
persuaded by liberal propoganda in it?
gaffo
2004-09-19 12:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as 'paradox' or
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is whether the
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always existed.
interesting - like Light is a Particle and/or a Wave. or the conflict
between relativity and quantum mechanics.
Actually it is the difference between "Necesisity" and "Contingency" in relation
to (mediation) or non_immediate inference. We are dealing with contingencies here
which means they can be either true or false depending upon the circumstances.
But as you know a necessary truth must be true by definition of the subject. So
in that respect you are right about QM as an analogy.
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then?
no - the opposite of course. unless YOU are a Solipsist.
Post by Immortalist
Or if you are bold enough to claim you are a
solipsist and exist,
nothing "bold" about the obvious.
Post by Immortalist
what are you existing in?
myself? external reality? - don't know. nothing beyond my own existence
in instant is knowable - all other things require faith.
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
you must be in the alt.philosophy group.................been many yrs
since Kant.
Solipsism is the only valid philosophy IMO. Kant was full of it.
Is there any way for you to defend this argument that Kant was full of it? Can
you present a persuasive argument based upon what he says?
no - its been 18 yrs and I've forgotten all his arguments. Nonetheless
anything beyond "I think therefore am" is assumption and faith based and
non verifiable.
Post by Immortalist
-----
Here are some snips about Kant's opinion about idealism and Berkeley's
inmaterialism (solipsism) and some about the cogitos (I AM);
The traditional "refutation" of idealism, (attributed to a "Dr. Johnson" as a
refutation of Bishop George Berkeley's version of idealism) suggests that, to
"disprove" idealism, all one has to do is kick something (or someone). As if to
say, "oh, so you don't believe in matter; then this shouldn't hurt a bit! But,
herein lies the problem. The only evidence sited for matter is "experience."
Remember when Hume referred to both "inward and outward sentiment?" He meant we
have the experience of stuff going on inside of us and the experience of stuff
going of outside of us. Both are experiences! Recall Kant's synthetic a priori
knowledge--the 12 categories including space and time, which filter the Noumena
into Phenomena. It is very similar here. In both cases there is "something"
outside that is then put into the minds structure and turned into an experience.
In both cases you can say that "you are not reading this text" and be perfectly
accurate! After Kant wrote his main book explaining how the mind constructs our
experience of the phenomenal realm, philosophers began wondering what
justification is there for the noumena? The Idealists answer is, there can be no
justification from experience.
http://commhum.mccneb.edu/dweber/101%20INTRO/Workbook/Chpt-3/3-2%20Idealism.htm
Refutation of Idealism - Kant argues that temporal judgments about one's own
states require reference to objects which endure in a way that mental
representations themselves do not, and therefore that consciousness of oneself
also implies consciousness of objects external to oneself [B 275-6] also [B
xxxix-xli].
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT7
When the Critique of Pure Reason was first published Kant was horrified when some
critics took him to be proposing a form of idealism not unlike, for example,
Berkeley's notorious immaterialism. On the face of it, it wouldn't be utterly
silly, given the arguments of the Aesthetic and Analytic, to suppose that Kant
was claiming that we construct the 'real world' in a way determined by the nature
of our sensory and intellectual apparatus, and that therefore there was simply no
such thing as the 'real world'. However Kant insists that this is not what he is
arguing, and in the second edition he adds a short section, 'The Refutation of
Idealism', where he argues against what he calls material idealism and
distinguishes it from transcendental idealism. We're going to concentrate on how
effective this refutation of material idealism is.
http://tinyurl.com/2sqpx
"inner experience in general is only possible through outer experience in
general" (B 278). Due to wide-spread preoccupation with Cartesian skepticism, and
to the anti-naturalism of early analytic philosophy (reflected in its basic
division between "conceptual" and "empirical" issues), most of Kant's recent
anglophone commentators have sought a purely conceptual, "analytic" argument in
Kant's Refutation of Idealism--and then criticized Kant when no such plausible
argument can be reconstructed from his text. They charge that Kant's
transcendental arguments must argue by elimination, though they fail to eliminate
the possibility of Descartes' evil deceiver, or alternative forms of cognition,
or the possibility that the mere (individually subjective) appearances of things
would suffice for the possibility of self-consciousness.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~j018/ktpr-bl.htm
----------------------------
Realism in the Refutation of Idealism
Andrew Brook
Summary
In the Refutation of Idealism and in a long footnote on the same subject added to
the second-edition Preface, Kant seems to say things that point, prima facie,
strongly in the direction of realism. Because any such view would seem to be
completely incompatible with the doctrine of the unknowability of things as they
are and some of his other views, few commentators have been willing to take them
at face value. In this paper, we examine these indications of realism, and then
propose a way to render them compatible with things in themselves being
unknowable. The key move is to distinguish between being aware of something and
having knowledge of it. Kant made this distinction a centrepiece of his treatment
of awareness of self. Did it also enter his thinking about awareness of objects?
Kant's dominant view of the sensible foundation of knowledge is that we are
immediately aware of nothing but our own representations. However, as Paul Guyer
has so richly documented, a streak of direct realism can also be found in his
work from time to time, a streak that would seem to be in considerable tension
with the official view. In the first Critique, this streak of realism shows up
most clearly in the Refutation of Idealism: he tells us at one point that we must
have "an immediate awareness of the existence of other things outside me" (B276),
of "an external thing distinct from all my representations" (Bxli), being careful
in these statements to include both the empirical sense of externality, being
located in space (`outside me', `external thing') and the transcendental sense
(`other things', i.e. things other than myself, which are `distinct from all my
representations').
In the first Critique the Refutation of Idealism is given in two parts. In
addition to the section so named, it is taken up in a long footnote appended to
the new Preface. There Kant tells us that he was not happy with some of the
details of the official argument and asks that certain passages in the footnote
be substituted. I will treat the original argument and the long supplementary
footnote together.
The central argument of the Refutation runs as follows.(1)
First, "I am aware of my own existence as determined in time" (B275). What he
means by "determined in time" is unclear in the Refutation, but gets clarified in
the footnote. He means;
the application of the apparatus of location
recognizing earlier and later stages of myself and
combining them, comparing the time of events in
me to the time of other events, locating
myself in time, and so on.
Secondly, I do not determine myself in time on the basis of anything represented
to me about myself. When I am aware of myself as subject of experience,
determinations of time are not represented at all. This form of self-awareness is
a merely intellectual representation of the spontaneity of the thinking subject.
This `I' has not, therefore the least predicate of intuition, which as permanent,
might serve as correlate for the determination of time in inner sense -- in the
manner in which, for instance, impenetrability serves in our empirical intuition
of matter [B278].
Thus, if I am going to determine my own existence in time, I could only do it via
the contents of inner sense. In any case, my temporal apparatus can be applied at
all only to intuitions, only to something that has a manifold, a multiplicity of
items (Bxl). For me to be able to apply temporal predicates to myself, therefore,
I must do so via applying it to intuitions. For this, however, not just any old
intuitions will do; mere multiplicity is not enough.
To apply temporal predicates, we must also be able to identify
change. To identify change, however, we must be able to
identify something as persisting through the change --
we must be able to identify something permanent.
For this, awareness of the contents of inner sense
can serve no better than awareness of self as subject.
Moreover, and this is a third and key move, by themselves and cut off from things
other than ourselves (Bxxxix fn.), neither representations nor any contents of a
representation could do any better at representing permanence.
... the representation of [the permanent] may be very transitory and variable
like all our other representations, not excepting those of matter, it yet refers
to something permanent. The latter must therefore be an external thing distinct
from all my representations ... [Bxli; my emphasis].
Our representations are constantly changing; indeed, they cease altogether for a
number of hours each night.
Therefore, the representation of permanence cannot
consist in anything permanent in representations.
Instead, from the contents of various representations
we must somehow extract something that we can
treat as a representation of a persisting object.
If this object were merely a property of myself, however, it would have no
permanence either. Therefore, an object could be represented as permanent only if
it is "an external thing distinct from all my representations" (Bxli);
I must be aware of at least some thing that
is neither a representation nor myself.
"In other words, the awareness of my existence
is at the same time an immediate awareness of
the existence of other things outside me" (B276).
At least some of the intentional objects of my representations must tell me of
the existence of real, independently-existing objects. QED. Kant is now
advocating some form of direct realism.(2)
http://www.carleton.ca/~abrook/REFUT-ID.htm
---------------------------------------------
Is there anything to the argument of the Refutation? It is hard to tell. Even if
we grant that objects of representations have no permanence, why are they not
able to represent permanence unless they represent something other in the
transcendental sense than oneself? Kant says nothing to help us. Perhaps he is
confusing objects of representation containing no permanence, in the sense of not
being permanent, with them not being able to represent permanence. Whatever, for
the argument of the Refutation, Kant must show that representations cannot
represent permanence by themselves. There are other controversial premises, too,
but here I do not intend to examine Kant's argument. Instead, I want to focus on
the realist conclusion. What are its implications? Can it be squared with other
things in the critical philosophy, in particular the doctrine of the
unknowability of things in themselves?
For Kant did not give one inch on the unknowability of the noumenal in the second
edition. Nor, for that matter, does he ever say that he is abandoning the idea
that we are aware only of our own representations. So what are we to make of the
new realism? Can having immediate awareness of "an external thing distinct from
all my representations" be squared with the rest of the critical philosophy?
To begin our search, notice first that the argument of the Refutation is by no
means unanticipated in the first edition, though many seem to believe the
opposite. Only the location, some details of the structure, and of course the
conclusion are new. When Kant turns to the Paralogisms as a whole in the first
... the appearance to outer sense has something fixed or abiding which supplies a
substratum to its transitory determinations ..., whereas time, which is the sole
form of our inner intuition, has nothing abiding and therefore yields knowledge
only of ... change ..., not of any object that can be thereby determined. For in
what we entitle `soul' everything is in continual flux and there is nothing
abiding except ... the `I', which ... has no content, and therefore no manifold
... [A381].
Kant's argument for the first Analogy, the Principle of Permanence of Substance,
is likewise similar in structure to the argument of the Refutation. The same is
true of the argument-structure of A108. Like the Refutation, all these passages
start from self-awareness, though the Refutation starts from empirical
self-awareness of myself as determined in time, not transcendental awareness of
myself as myself, a point Allison makes.(3) Likewise, the fundamental idea in all
these passages is that I could appear to myself as I do only if my
representations have a certain character; in the case of the Refutation,
"awareness of my existence is bound up by way of identity (identisch verbunden)
with the awareness of ... something outside me" (Bxl).(4) Of course, the
Refutation reaches a stronger conclusion than the first-edition passages. It
argues that representations must represent objects external in the transcendental
sense, i.e., object genuinely other than myself, whereas the first-edition
passages argue only that objects must be located in space and time and tied
together under the Categories. Nevertheless, at least the argument-structure of
the Refutation is not a radical departure from the first edition.(5)
So what are the implications of the new doctrine? Kant's new doctrine can be
split into two: as well as the new notion that we are aware of objects other than
ourselves, there is a new concept of what a genuinely external object is like.
Unlike the discussion of the fourth Paralogism, Kant is now drawing a deep
distinction between representation of an object and at least some objects; now at
least some objects are quite distinct from our representations of them. In the
first edition, the distinction between `real objects independent of our
representations' and `intentional objects whose existence depends on our
representations' depended merely on our passivity to the former and denseness of
causal integration. Now it takes on some real strength.
With this change seems to go a change in Kant's conception of matter. In the
first edition, Kant treated matter as a mere feature of appearances -- a feature
that consists of the objects of these appearances having extension,
impenetrability, cohesion, and motion (A358) -- and contrasted it with things as
they actually are (A268=B324).
Matter is with [the transcendental idealist], therefore, only a species of
representations (intuition), which are called external, not as standing in
relation to objects in themselves external, but because they relate perceptions
to the space in which all things are external to one another, while yet the space
itself is in us [A370]
What the `substrate' (A350) of matter might be like, what "inwardly belongs to
it" (A277=B333, a nice Leibnizian term), is hidden from us. All we can be aware
of are its effects on our representations. In the Refutation, this doctrine of
matter undergoes a transformation. Having argued that we must have immediate
awareness of something other than ourselves that is permanent, Kant says in Note
2. that "... we have nothing permanent ... save only matter" (B278, his
emphasis). He then gives the earth and the sun as his example -- we can see the
sun move by comparing it to the earth's permanence. To our immense frustration,
this elusive hint is all Kant gives us, but it is enough to indicate that he now
seems to believe that matter exists independently of us.(6)
Must Kant also abandon or modify his doctrine of the ideality of space? This is
the doctrine that space has no extra-mental existence. Though it might still be
us who impose spatial matrices, it would surely be utterly unmotivated now to
continue to insist that things as they are could not have spatial properties. If
so, the treasured distinction of the first edition between being external to me
in space (a state compatible with being a property of me) and being an object
other than me should disappear, too. Unfortunately, Kant gives us nothing to
allow us to pursue these questions further, not in the first Critique at least.
So let us turn to the final question I will consider: Can the new view be squared
with the doctrine of the unknowability of things as they are? One way to solve
the problem would be to construe the new claims about awareness of `other things
outside me' as falling within transcendental idealism. This would immediately
solve the problem, and is the approach Allison takes: he construes the new
awareness as merely a new application of the general doctrine of Kant's mentioned
earlier, that we are aware of only representations (hereafter OR, for `only
representations').(7) Guyer takes Kant's realist pronouncements more seriously,
quoting his saying that we have an "intellectual intuition" of "other things
outside me" which is "not a mere representation of them in space" (i.e. not
intuitional). Despite this, Guyer cannot bring himself to suggest that Kant could
contradict OR any more than Allison. In Guyer's view, Kant is merely claiming
that we must presuppose "that there are external objects", not that we must be
immediately aware of them; our representations do not actually present objects
other than oneself, they just presuppose such objects.(8) So let us ask: Why does
even a commentator as sensitive to the realist strain in Kant as Guyer refuse to
accept his realist pronouncements at face value? What makes him foist such a
complicated and implausible account on Kant?
I do not think that it could be merely because the new pronouncements are
inconsistent with OR. OR is not only extraordinarily implausible, it has caused
no end of mischief in the history of philosophy. Any reason to think that Kant
edged away from it at some points in his career would be a reason to rejoice.
Rather, I think the reason has to be that the new doctrine seems to be so
blatantly inconsistent with the doctrine of the unknowability of the noumenal.
Our task is to see if that is so.
Though it has been little remarked upon in the literature, Kant made a
distinction between being aware of something and having knowledge of it that is
vital to the question before us. Most of the time the distinction arose in
connection with awareness of self of a certain kind, so let us first explore it
in that context. In the first edition, he says that we can denote the self
"without noting in it any quality whatsoever" (A355). In the second edition, he
speaks of an "awareness of self" that is "very far from being a knowledge of the
self" (B158), and that we are aware of ourselves "not as we appear, or as we are,
but only that we are" (B157). Kant seems to be invoking exactly the same
non-knowledge but still immediate awareness of the self in the long footnote: "I
am aware of my existence in time ... , and this is more than to be aware merely
of my representations" (Bxl, my emphasis). Now entertain an interesting if
necessarily speculative idea: suppose Kant applied the same analysis to awareness
of things other than the self? Suppose he distinguished immediate awareness of
objects other than oneself from knowledge of them, too? If so, he could have his
new claims about our immediate awareness of them without violating his old view
that we have no knowledge of them. There is a bit of evidence to support this
speculation, though not much -- Kant makes a few statements that point to it.
In the long footnote, Kant puts his new idea in a surprisingly large number of
"the determination of my existence in time is possible only through the existence
of actual things which I perceive outside me" (B275-6). Sometimes he puts it in a
way that does not actually imply direct realism at all: we must have "awareness
we must have merely immediate awareness of "the existence of other things outside
me" (B276, my emphases in all cases). This claim could easily have behind it the
distinction between being aware of something and knowing anything about it that
we have just explored in connection with awareness of self.
As an exception to any two-world picture of phenomena and noumena, this new view
would be drastic; it would be a death sentence for OR. If we are immediately
aware of the world as it is, the idea that the world as it is never appears in
any way in our representations has to go. Neither implication seems to me to be
fatal for a suggestion that Kant might have held, or at least have been working
his way toward, the new view.
In fact, in one respect, the Refutation may go further with immediate awareness
of things as they are than even the other second edition passages just cited did.
In the Refutation we are not just aware of objects other than ourselves, we even
have one piece of knowledge of them: that they are permanent, some of them
anyway. This would mean that on this one point, our representations of the world
would actually represent the world as it is. Walker has expressed a fear that
allowing immediate awareness of the self would open a flood-gate to knowledge of
the noumenal. So far as awareness of self is concerned, I think his worry is
groundless.(9) With respect to the statements in the Refutation and the long
footnote we have been examining, however, he may well have a point. Even here,
Kant could still cogently insist, we have no immediate, unconstructed awareness
of any other property of anything, so have no other knowledge of their
properties.
Is there any reason to think that Kant might have applied his notion of a kind of
`transcendental' reference to self in which no qualities are noted to things
other than oneself? One reason is that for Kant, awareness of self and awareness
of things other than self are symmetrical. If so, and if there is a form of
reference to self that requires no description or concept-application, then Kant
could well have made use of a notion of a similar form of reference to objects.
On the reading of the Refutation that I am suggesting, reference to self and
reference to objects other than the self would display just this symmetry. In
both cases, we may have no knowledge of the things to which we refer, knowledge
of them as they are, but in both cases our acts of reference would refer to and
thus make us aware of the objects themselves, not just representations of them.
Of oneself these acts would yield a `bare consciousness' (A346=B404) of the self
that is "very far from being a knowledge of the self" (B158). Of things other
than oneself, they would yield "an immediate awareness of the existence of other
things outside me" (B276) that would be equally far from being a knowledge of
them.
The distinction between being aware of something and knowing anything of it
points to an important theory of reference. On this distinction, reference could
`reach all the way' to its object, yet description could remain an act of
constructive concept-application, even to the point of the constructor not being
able to know whether it is ever accurate -- reference could reach a real object,
free of potentially distorting judgment or description, and yet all possible room
for description to be `theory-laden' and otherwise influenced by the cognitive
apparatus of the mind doing the describing could be preserved. When Kant called a
certain kind of reference transcendental designation (A355), he may even have had
something like this in mind; when reference `notes no qualities', is
non-ascriptive, it would be transcending the apperceptive, synthesizing
activities of the mind. Once such an act of non-ascriptive reference is made, it
would immediately be surrounded by an `umbra' of cognitive manipulations, of
course: the undescribed object to which reference has been made would be judged,
described, propositional attitudes would be taken up to it, theories could be
formed about it, and so on. It would be at this stage but only at the this stage
that we would enter the realm of knowledge. For one thing, knowledge requires the
possibility of error -- incorrect judgment or description -- and there would be
no possibility of this kind of error in an act of non-ascriptive reference.(10)
It would also be at this stage that we would enter the realm of what cannot be
checked against things as they are, where we could now understand the latter to
be the objects to which we have achieved reference. In fact, the possibilities
for descriptive error within this theory of reference are vast, so vast that even
something as basic as how I carve the world up into objects could be in error.
But what would not be in error when I have achieved reference is a belief that I
am referring to and therefore am aware of something -- something other than
myself. This sort of theory of reference is quite different from the picture
generally accepted in Anglo-American philosophy since WWII, in which reference is
always under a description. However, it or a view like it does have contemporary
proponents, including Putnam, Kripke, and the later Wittgenstein. It is at the
heart of most paradigm-based semantics theories. If I am right, once again Kant
proves to be more than a cultural artefact, a mere earlier stage in our
intellectual history.
http://www.carleton.ca/~abrook/REFUT-ID.htm
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KANT AND HIS REFUTATION OF IDEALISM*
36. Kant's refutation of idealism in the second edition of the Critic of the Pure
Reason has been often held to be inconsistent with his main position or even to
be knowingly sophistical. It appears to me to be one of the numerous passages in
that work which betray an elaborated and vigorous analysis, marred in the
exposition by the attempt to state the argument more abstractly and
demonstratively than the thought would warrant.
In "Note 1," Kant says that his argument beats idealism at its own game. How is
that? The idealist says that all that we know immediately, that is, otherwise
than inferentially, is what is present in the mind; and things out of the mind
are not so present. The whole idealist position turns upon this conception of the
present.
37. The idealistic argument turns upon the assumption that certain things are
absolutely "present," namely what we have in mind at the moment, and that nothing
else can be immediately, that is, otherwise than inferentially known. When this
is once granted, the idealist has no difficulty in showing that that external
existence which we cannot know immediately we cannot know, at all. Some of the
arguments used for this purpose are of little value, because they only go to show
that our knowledge of an external world is fallible; now there is a world of
difference between fallible knowledge and no knowledge.
However, I think it would have to be admitted as a matter of logic that if we
have no immediate perception of a non-ego, we can have no reason to admit the
supposition of an existence so contrary to all experience as that would in that
case be. 38. But what evidence is there that we can immediately know only what is
"present" to the mind? The idealists generally treat this as self-evident; but,
as Clifford jestingly says, " it is evident " is a phrase which only means " we
do not know how to prove."
The proposition that we can immediately perceive only what is present seems to me
parallel to that other vulgar prejudice that "a thing cannot act where it is
not." An opinion which can only defend itself by such a sounding phrase is pretty
sure to be wrong. That a thing cannot act where it is not is plainly an induction
from ordinary experience, which shows no forces except such as act through the
resistance of materials, with the exception of gravity which, owing to its being
the same for all bodies,does not appear in ordinary experience like a force. But
further experience shows that attractions and repulsions are the universal types
of forces. A thing may be said to be wherever it acts; but the notion that a
particle is absolutely present in one part of space and absolutely absent from
all the rest of space is devoid of all foundation.
In like manner, the idea that we can immediately perceive only what is present
seems to be founded on our ordinary experience |p17 that we cannot recall and
reexamine the events of yesterday nor know otherwise than by inference what is to
happen tomorrow. Obviously, then, the first move toward beating idealism at its
own game is to remark that we apprehend our own ideas only as flowing in time,
and since neither the future nor the past, however near they may be, is present,
there is as much difficulty in conceiving our perception of what passes within us
as in conceiving external perception. If so, replies the idealist, instead of
giving up idealism we must go still further to nihilism. Kant does not notice
this retort; but it is clear from his footnote that he would have said: Not so;
for it is impossible we should so much as think we think in time unless we do
think in time; or rather, dismissing blind impossibility, the mere imagination of
time is a clear perception of the past.
Hamilton* stupidly objects to Reid's phrase "immediate memory"; but an immediate,
intuitive consciousness of time clearly exists wherever time exists. But once
grant immediate knowledge in time, and what becomes of the idealist theory that
we immediately know only the present? For the present can contain no time. 39.
But Kant does not pursue this line of thought along the straight road to its
natural result; because he is a sort of idealist himself. Namely, though not
idealistic as to the substance of things, he is partially so in regard to their
accidents. Accordingly, he introduces his distinction of the variable and the
persistent (beharrlich), and seeks to show that the only way we can apprehend our
own flow of ideas, binding them together as a connected flow, is by attaching
them to an immediately perceived persistent externality. He refuses to inquire
how that immediate external consciousness is possible, though such an inquiry
might have probed the foundations of his system.
http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/peirce/exexwo_90.htm
-----------------------------------
§5. The Refutation of Idealism and the Distinction Between Perception and
Imagination
§5.1 Introduction
According to Kant, the argument in the Refutation of Idealism is supposed to
"establish that we have experience and not merely imagination of outer things".
This focus on the distinction between perception (experience of outer things) and
imagination is easy to overlook because of the apparently disparate notions upon
which the argument draws: consciousness of self, time determination, and the
immediacy of inner and outer sense. Kant claims that the refutation is directed
against the problematic idealism that he attributes to Descartes, and not against
the dogmatic idealism of Berkeley. Problematic idealism, according to Kant, holds
that the existence of things outside of me is "doubtful and indemonstrable",
whereas dogmatic idealism holds that the existence of things outside me is
impossible.
The two idealisms are surely distinct. Nonetheless, Kant recognized how easily
problematic idealism can lead to dogmatism. Both use cases of illusion and
hallucination to make their arguments. Problematic idealism uses illusion and
hallucination to establish the unreliability of inference from the subjective
qualitative character of mental states to objective properties of objects.
Dogmatic idealism uses illusion and hallucination to establish that the contents
of mental states remain identical regardless of the existence of external
objects. A principled distinction between perception and imagination undercuts
both sorts of idealism. Although Kant addresses problematic idealism in the
refutation, he leaves dogmatic idealism to a note in the unrevised B edition,
where he says that the question it raises is "whether we have only an inner sense
but no outer one, rather merely outer imagination." But this is the question that
the refutation is intended to answer against the problematic idealist - of
whether we have experience and not merely imagination of outer things. If the
refutation undercuts both problematic and dogmatic idealism, why does Kant direct
it only against problematic idealism?
For two reasons. First, he thinks that the Transcendental Analytic has already
refuted dogmatic idealism by establishing that space is not a property of things
in themselves. In other words, Kant holds that transcendental idealism, with its
distinction between the empirically real and the transcendentally ideal undercuts
dogmatic idealism by making spatio-temporal experience a necessary feature of our
experience of empirical objects. Second, the distinction between perception and
imagination that undercuts both idealisms can be made, according to Kant, only by
denying the central theses of problematic idealism: one, that the immediate
object of experience is an object of inner sense; the other that all perception
is mediated by inference from the immediate object of inner sense to external
objects. "The proof that is demanded [for a refutation of problematic
idealism].cannot be accomplished unless one can prove that even our inner
experience, undoubted by Descartes, is possible only under the presupposition of
outer experience."
Kant refutes problematic idealism not by establishing the reliability of
inference from the immediate objects of inner sense to external objects, but by
denying that the only immediate objects of experience are objects of inner sense,
and by denying that perception is inferentially mediated by objects of inner
sense. Significantly, Kant does not deny that perception is mediated. To do so
would be inconsistent with the rest of his project: perception, as empirical
representation, is possible only through the synthesis of the imagination, the
unity of apperception and the application of the categories, which are processes
of mediation. When Kant claims that perception is immediate, he is denying that
perception is mediated in the way that the problematic idealist thinks of
mediation, namely by inference based on the intrinsic properties of the mental
state and of the object that it represents.
In other words, Kant's empirical realism is a kind of direct realism, as defined
in chapter two. In addition, the direct realism advocated in the refutation, like
Reid's realism, is bound up with the notion that the content of perception is
externally individuated. Kant denies the central theses of problematic idealism
by showing that perception, or outer sense, is made possible only by the
existence of objects that are distinct from our perception of them and by showing
that imagination is dependent on perception. Kant shows that perception is a kind
of representation that depends on the existence of the object which it
represents - it is a de re, or demonstrative representation. An imagination, on
the other hand, is not the kind of representation which depends for on the
existence of the object which it represents - there need be no unicorn before me
in order for me to imagine or hallucinate a unicorn.
§5.2 The Refutation of Idealism
The main argument in the Refutation of Idealism can be broken down into the
RI1) "I am conscious of my existence as determined in time. "
RI2) According to the first analogy, all time-determination presupposes the
perception of a persistent thing.
RI3) The persistent thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in me.
RI4) The perception of the persistent thing depends on the persistent thing and
not on my representing the persisting thing.
RI5) \ My consciousness of my existence as determined in time is possible only if
I perceive something that persists outside of me.
Premise RI1 is shared by Kant and the sort of idealist against whom the
refutation is directed. Kant and the problematic idealist agree that I experience
my own mental states and that I experience them as my own, over time. The
problematic idealist, however, confers epistemological priority on inner
experience, which is certain because it is immediate; it is not the product of
inference. Putative outer experience, however, is possible only mediately by
inference from mental states given immediately in inner experience. The
problematic idealist, then, does not merely agree to the premise that I am
conscious of my existence as determined in time; she also holds that such
consciousness has special epistemological status, which is used to undermine the
epistemological status of perception. The refutation will show that this position
is internally inconsistent because the problematic idealist cannot hold RI1 while
also holding that all our perceptions may be mere imaginations. As Kant writes,
"the game that idealism plays has with greater justice been turned against it,"
"Kant's conclusion could be rephrased as follows: "I know I exist in time"
entails (in conjunction with other knowable premises) that I have or have had
veridical perceptions of a permanent entity in space. Such a conclusion could be
said to 'answer' the Cartesian by establishing that, contrary to what the
arguments from hallucination, etc. seem to suggest, there is actually an
inconsistency in maintaining the Cartesian assumptions about self-knowledge in
conjunction with the view that all one's 'outer' perceptions might be
non-veridical "
Premise RI2, that all time determination presupposes a thing persistent in
perception is supposed to have been established by the first analogy, which I
shall not examine in detail. Roughly, the argument is that in order for me to be
conscious of my existence in time, I must be conscious of changes in my
representations because time is not an object of perception and
time-determination is perceived as change. But to perceive change, one must
perceive it relative to something that persists. Thus, this 'something that
persists' must also be an object of perception: this is the 'persistent in
perception'.
Premise RI3, that the persistent thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in
me, is stated by Kant in the unrevised B edition as "This persisting thing,
however, cannot be something in me, since my own existence in time can first be
determined only through this persistent thing." In the revised Preface to this
"This persisting thing, however, cannot be an intuition in me. For all grounds of
determination of my existence that can be encountered in me are representations,
and as such require something persistent that is distinct even from them, in
relation to which their change, thus my existence in the time in which they
change, can be determined."
This premise rules out the possibility that the persisting thing that I perceive
is a representation in me - an object of inner sense. The argument in the first
analogy that supports premise RI2 requires that in order for me to be conscious
of my self as determined in time, I must be conscious of a change in my
representations, but I cannot be conscious of this change save by perceiving a
persisting thing against which the change in my representation can be measured.
Perceiving something permanent in perception, then, is a precondition for
consciousness of changing representations. If the persisting thing were a
representation, my consciousness of it would require the perception of a
persisting thing that is not a representation, and so ad infinitum. Consciousness
of the persisting thing (perception) is prior both to consciousness of
representations and to consciousness of self, which means that consciousness of
the persisting thing cannot be consciousness of a representation.
The substituted remark from the B Preface also makes clear what Kant intends by
the spatial metaphors in me and outside me. The persisting thing that I perceive
is a thing outside me in the sense that it is distinct from my representing it.
The persisting thing that I perceive cannot be an intuition in me, because the
perception - which allows me to become aware of the succession of
representations, and my determination in time - must be a representation of
something distinct from my representation of it. Its esse cannot be percipi. But
no mere representation is distinct from my representation of it - the esse of
representation is percipi - and so the persisting thing that I perceive cannot be
a representation. And, finally, no representation can itself be the persisting
thing because representations themselves do not persist over time - they are
necessarily fleeting.
Premise RI4 states that the perception of the persistent thing depends for its
existence on that thing and not upon my representing it. This premise requires
that the perception of the persisting thing is a de re or demonstrative form of
representation: "Thus the perception of this persistent thing is possible only
through a thing outside me and not through the mere representation of a thing
outside me." In other words, when I perceive the persisting thing I represent not
'that there is a persisting thing outside me' but, about that persisting thing
outside me, that it is thus and so. The conclusion of the refutation is that my
consciousness of my existence as determined in time is possible only if I
perceive something that persists outside me. It is important to note that for
Kant perception of something that persists outside me is distinct from perception
that something persists outside me: only the former is sufficient for
consciousness of self in time. In the latter sort of representation, if one
succeeds in picking out an object, one will have done so only by having given a
successful description of the object, and such description can occur in the
absence of any object which corresponds to it. The existence of the latter sort
of representation, however, depends on its picking out an object, and it picks
out its object directly, without the aid of description.
§5.3 Immediacy
The argument in the refutation demonstrates that "inner experience, undoubted by
Descartes, is possible only under the presupposition of outer experience" by
showing that perception of external objects - outer experience - is required for
consciousness of my self in time - inner experience. But does it show, as Kant
claims, that "outer experience is really immediate.so that inner experience
itself is consequently only mediate."? Kant says that inner sense is mediate
because it is made possible only if we have outer sense. This use of 'mediate'
indicates something like 'presupposes something else' while 'immediate' suggests
'is presupposed by something else'. Kant is merely making reference to the form
of the refutation as a transcendental argument. The problematic idealist doubts
that which makes possible what she regards as most certain. Call this use of
'mediate' and 'immediate' the 'presuppositional' use. Kant's claim that inner
sense is mediate uses 'mediate' presuppositionally; thus, he should not be read
as saying that inner experience is the product of inference from outer
experience.
On the other hand, the immediacy of outer experience is not merely a claim about
the form of the refutation; it is claim about the de re/demonstrative nature of
perception as revealed in premise RI4. Kant is not merely claiming that outer
sense is presupposed by, and thus prior to, inner sense, but also that outer
sense is not mediated in the way that the problematic idealist insists it must
be. In Note 1, Kant provides the argument against which his refutation is
directed.
Idealism assumed that the only immediate experience is inner experience, and that
from that outer things could only be inferred, but, as in any case in which one
infers from given effects to determinate causes, only unreliably, since the cause
of the representations that we perhaps falsely ascribe to outer things can also
lie in us.
PI1) The only immediate objects of experience are objects of inner sense.
PI2) The existence of objects outside us can be known only mediately, by
inference from the immediate objects of experience.
PI3) Such inferences from the immediate objects of experience to things known
only mediately by them are unreliable.
PI4) Unreliable inferences cannot be the basis of knowledge.
PI5) \ We can have no knowledge of the existence of objects outside us.
According to the idealist, whether something is immediate or mediate depends on
whether it is the product of inference. Call this the 'inferential' use. After
Kant presents the problematic idealist's argument, he makes it clear that the
refutation is intended to undercut premise PI1, that the only immediate objects
of experience are objects of inner sense. "Yet here it is proved that outer
experience is really immediate.." The kind of immediacy referred to in premise
PI1 can't be undermined by showing that inner experience is made possible only by
outer experience. One could hold premise PI2, that the existence of objects
outside us can be known only mediately, by inference from the immediate objects
of experience, while also holding the conclusion of the refutation that if we
never experienced objects outside us there would be no immediate objects of
experience. One could hold, for example, that we experience external objects by
experiencing their effects; that these effects are the only immediate object of
experience; that without external objects there would be no immediate object of
experience. Kant must claim that outer experience is immediate in the
non-inferential sense, not just the presuppositional sense, in order to undermine
premise PI1.
Kant rejects premise PI2, that the only way we can know external objects is by
inference from objects of inner sense. But he also rejects an even stronger
thesis, holding that in perception we cannot make inferences to outer objects
from inspecting objects of inner sense. Objects of inner sense simply lack the
intrinsic properties required to form a first-person inferential basis for
judgments about objects of outer sense. Objects of inner sense lack the
properties characteristic of objects of outer sense: unity, necessary connection
with other objects, and so on. The relation between objects of inner sense and
objects of outer sense can never be an internal relation - a relation based on
intrinsic properties of the relata.
Whatever relation objects of inner sense could bear to objects of outer sense
would be determined not by the properties of the relata but by the forms of
intuition and understanding that provide the only rules by which such connections
can be made.
"Combination does not lie in the objects, however, and cannot as it were be
borrowed from them through perception.
Thus we ourselves bring into the appearances that order and regularity in them
that we call nature, and moreover we would not be able to find it there if we, or
the nature of our mind, had not originally put it there. "
In other words, whatever relation objects of inner sense bear to objects of outer
sense, it must be an external relation afforded by cognition itself. It is
precisely because the objects of perception are determined by rules that we
generate - by external relations - that perception is direct rather than
indirect. Perception is a representational relation between items connected to
each other not internally but by a rule that we apply. Perception represents
objects not by inferences made from the intrinsic character of mental items but
by having been connected according to an external rule.
Kant rejects premise PI1 in the idealist's argument - that the only immediate
objects of experience are the objects of inner sense - because he regards the
objects of perception as immediate in the sense that we experience them
non-inferentially by a de re/demonstrative representation. That outer experience
is immediate in the non-inferential sense follows from the kind of representation
that perception must be in order for it to enable consciousness of
representations and of self. It is the kind of representation, as Kant says, that
is "possible only through a thing outside me and not through a mere
representation of a thing outside me." It is also the kind of representation that
takes an object not in virtue of the intrinsic properties of the representation
and the object but in virtue of their extrinsic properties which are conferred by
cognition according to a rule. This kind of representation - a de
re/demonstrative representation - is not and cannot be a product of inference
alone.
§5.4 The Distinction Between Perception and Imagination
Recall that the refutation is intended to "establish that we have experience and
not merely imagination of outer things". As has been shown, Kant regards the
experience of outer things as immediate. In the notes that follow the refutation,
Kant addresses the question whether the immediate experience of outer things,
i.e. perception, is possible. In a footnote to Note 1, he identifies two
questions: (a) whether immediate perception is possible with (b) whether our
"The immediate consciousness of the existence of outer things is not presupposed
but proved in the preceding theorem [the Refutation of Idealism], whether we have
insight into the possibility of this consciousness or not. The question about the
latter would be whether we have only an inner sense but no outer one, rather
merely outer imagination. But it is clear that in order for us even to imagine
something as external, i.e., to exhibit it to sense in intuition, we must already
have an outer sense."
Here, and in Note 3, Kant addresses the problematic idealist's move from PI3 and
PI4 to PI5, from the claim that for any given perception, inference from
immediate sensory experience to the object of the perception is unreliable, to
the claim that we can have no knowledge of objects outside of us, a distinction
exploited by the dogmatic idealist. Kant recognizes that this move allows that
our experience could remain just as it is even if no objects existed outside of
us. He must maintain the position argued in premise RI4 that perception is a kind
of de re/demonstrative representation, while allowing for the possibility of
illusion and hallucination. But it is this possibility that the problematic
idealist exploits.
The problematic idealist asks: if, for any given perceptual experience, our
experience could remain the same, whether or not the object of the perceptual
experience is an object existing outside us, why suppose that perception is
reliable? The dogmatic idealist asks: if, for any given perceptual experience,
our experience could remain the same, whether or not the object of the perceptual
experience is an object existing outside us, why suppose that any perceptual
experiences imply such external objects? Kant's answer to these questions is
threefold. First, consistent with the refutation of idealism, he maintains that
perception is a kind of de re/demonstrative representation, the kind that depends
upon the existence of the object it represents. Second, he holds that illusion
and hallucination are not de re/demonstrative representations, and so are not
species of perception. Third, and most important he argues that illusion and
hallucination are dependent on perception. Once again, Kant plays idealism's game
against itself by showing that illusion and hallucination, which the idealist
uses to undermine the reliability and possibility of perception, actually
presuppose perception.
Hallucinations and illusions, like perceptions, are representations, and like
perceptions they represent their objects as external. Any theory of perception
must address this shared feature of perception, illusion and hallucination. Kant
acknowledges that imagination can represent objects as external, but he denies
that it can represent external objects. This is why premise RI4 of the refutation
is concerned to distinguish de re/demonstrative representation from descriptive
representation. A representation that there is a persisting thing is not
sufficient for time determination; only a representation of a persisting thing
makes possible the perception of change required for consciousness of self in
time. In Note 3 to the refutation, Kant writes,
"From the fact that the existence of outer objects is required for the
possibility of a determinate consciousness of our self it does not follow that
every intuitive representation of outer things includes at the same time their
existence, for that may well be the effect of the imagination (in dreams as well
as in delusions). "
In other words, some of our intuitive representations of outer things do not
depend upon the existence of the objects that they represent - they are not de
re/demonstrative representations. Imagination represents some of its objects as
external. But these are dreams and delusions, effects of the imagination, not
cases of perception. Imaginations and perceptions are different sorts of
representation: imagination represents objects regardless of the existence of the
objects that it represents; perception, as Kant writes, is "possible only through
the actuality of outer objects."
Finally, imagination presupposes perception. Kant gives two arguments to support
this claim. The first appears in Note 3: ".but [dreams and delusions] are
possible merely through the reproduction of previous outer perceptions, which, as
has been shown, are possible only through the actuality of outer objects." In
other words, dreams, illusions and hallucination are representations assembled
from previous outer perceptions through reproduction and synthesis. Furthermore,
the representations that are reproduced are perceptions - representations of
external objects rather than mere representations as of an external object; thus,
there would be no dreams or delusions without perceptions.
This differs from the familiar empiricist position on imagination in a striking
way: Kant is not claiming that in dreams and delusions we jumble together
previous sensations or objects of inner sense; he is claiming that we reproduce
and synthesize previous perceptions - representations of outer objects. This is
made clear by how Kant regards the objects of inner sense and sensations, which
do not represent objects as external. A sensation of red differs from a
perception of a red thing primarily because the former represents nothing
external. No reproduction and synthesis of sensations or objects of inner sense
could account for the fact that we represent the objects of dreams and delusions
as external. Only a relation to some thing distinct from representation can
afford the kind of consciousness required to represent something as external;
only the externalist character of perception can account for the phenomenal
character of dreams and delusions. When in dreams and delusions we represent
objects as external, we make a mistake, but this mistake is possible only because
we are able to get it right some of the time. As Carl Posy writes in
"Transcendental Idealism and Causality", "Kant, of course, clearly holds that
sensory information alone would never suffice to provide the "dignity of relation
to an object" (A197)"
Kant's second argument for the priority of perception over imagination makes
clear how different his conception is from the empiricist's. In a footnote to
"But it is clear that in order for us even to imagine something as external,
i.e., to exhibit it to sense in intuition, we must already have an outer sense,
and by this means immediately distinguish the mere receptivity of an outer
intuition from the spontaneity that characterizes every imagination. For even to
merely imagine an outer sense would itself annihilate the faculty of intuition,
which is to be determined through the imagination. "
If imagination were able on its own to represent some of its objects as external,
i.e., without our ever having been effected by an external object, the faculty of
intuition would be otiose. Kant is not claiming that we never imagine the objects
we take to be external, nor that we never hallucinate or suffer illusions.
Rather, he claims that the ability to hallucinate and suffer illusions depends
"In cases of seeming perception where there is no apprehension of something that
exists outside the mind, the episode is just an illusion and not an apprehension
of a spatial reality that is somehow also an inner reality. The aberration
consists in the absence (nonexistence) of the outer spatial thing that seems to
be present and not in the presence of an inner spatial thing. Since there are no
inner spatial things, we cannot advert to such things in order to explain what
happens in aberrant perception. It is desirous to keep in focus Kant's conception
of imagination as "thought of an object that is not present."
Since objects are required for the possibility of experience, we can say that
only perceivers hallucinate, only a subject who can really experience an object
can seem to experience one. "
We can perceive because the imagination can apprehend, reproduce and synthesize,
because our self-consciousness allows us to represent objects as unities and
because the categories enable us to make the judgments that make possible the
very distinction between an external and internal object. Imagination of an
object as external requires these same cognitive conditions. In order to
hallucinate an oasis in a desert, I must apprehend, reproduce and synthesize the
impressions that make up the phenomenal content of the hallucination. In order to
move my body towards the hallucination and drink its hallucinatory water, I must
represent not only the oasis but myself and my relation to it. In order to see
the oasis as an oasis, and regard it (wrongly) as something that may save my
life, I must apply the categories. Although the conditions that make perception
possible make dreams and delusions possible as well, the conditions themselves -
particularly consciousness of myself as determined in time - are possible only
because perception is not the same as imagination. If perception were
imagination, if it merely represented objects as external rather than
representing external objects, neither perception nor imagination would be
possible. Only on the possibility of perceptions, which provide a demonstrative
reference to external objects, can one account for the fact that illusions,
dreams and hallucinations purport to represent external objects. As William
Harper writes,
"The Refutation of Idealism argues that only outer appearances can provide
demonstrative reference to content that can determine a truth of the matter about
what is to count as my subjective empirical self. On this view only insofar as
this self is determined by outer appearances - only insofar as it is pinned down
by the path of my body through a world of outer things - can it provide a subject
to which the appearances of inner sense can be attributed.
On this view the demon hypothesis in my own case is incoherent because it assumes
away the reference that is required to provide the content that could make it
count as true. "
In §1 of this chapter I argued that for Kant, the problem of perceptual
objectivity is not whether we're getting it right about the world, but whether we
're getting at a world about which we can be right (or wrong), at all. I
described Kant's notion of perceptual objectivity as representational purport.
Kant calls our perceptions objective because they aim at material, external
objects as their target. Perceptions have this target because they are formed
according to rules and norms built into our faculties, norms that specify the
conditions of 'objecthood' prior to our forming any particular perceptions of
particular objects. What makes perceptions into representations of objects for
Kant is not any quality that they have, but our forming them according to norms
that specify what it is for us to represent an object at all. I identified Kant's
central notion of objectivity with objective validity. Perceptions have objective
validity because they aim at representing objects. A perception has objective
reality only if it is applied to something of which it is true, i.e., only if the
representation purports to be about a specific object or state of affairs and is
in fact about that object or state-of-affairs. The conditions of objective
validity are conditions of the possibility of representing an object in
perception at all; they serve as conditions of objectivity prior to any actual
perceptual interaction with the world. Thus, objective validity is prior to
objective reality.
Kant's discussion of the priority of perception over imagination in the
refutation makes clear that imaginations of outer objects - dreams and
delusions - have objective validity but not objective reality, as I argued in §
4. The conditions of the possibility of representing an object in perceptions are
conditions of representational purport. Hallucinations and illusions also purport
to represent the world, and so fall under the same conditions. Hallucinations and
illusions, however, are not applied to any actual object or state of affairs of
which they could be true and so do not possess objective reality. Hallucination
and illusion seem like perceptions, but they are not perceptions because they do
not possess objective reality. That hallucinations and illusions possess
sensations do not posses objective validity and do not purport to be about
objects. Kant undermines idealism by distinguishing between perception and
imagination without sacrificing the phenomenological observation that
hallucinations and illusions, like perception, purport to represent the world.
§5.5 Skepticism
Kant's remarks about dreams and delusions specify what sorts of skepticism are
ruled out in the refutation. Dogmatic and problematic idealism can lead to three
different types of skepticism. All three trade on the fact that perceptions,
illusions, dreams and hallucinations purport to represent the world. The first
questions whether, for any given perception, we can distinguish it from a mere
imagination. The second questions whether perceptual experience can be the basis
of knowledge given that perception is the result of inference and that we may
infer as easily (though wrongly) to the existence of external objects from
hallucination and illusion as from perception. This skepticism follows from
problematic idealism. The third sort of skepticism questions whether all
perception is mere imagination and concludes that the existence of an external
world is explanatorily unnecessary. This skepticism follows from dogmatic
idealism. The refutation, according to Kant, rules out the second and third sorts
"Here it had to be proved only that inner experience in general is possible only
through outer experience in general. Whether this or that putative experience is
not mere imagination must be ascertained according to its particular
determinations and through its coherence with the criteria of all actual
experience. "
Like the idealists against whom Kant argues, he accepts that hallucination,
illusion and misperception purport to represent the world. He refutes the second
type of skepticism by denying that perception is mediated by inference, showing
that the immediate experience which the problematic idealist regards as epistemol
ogically prior to perception actually presupposes perception. He refutes the
third type of skepticism by denying that imagination is identical with
perception, showing that the imagination of outer objects which the dogmatic
idealist claims forms our 'perceptual' experience actually presupposes the
perception of outer objects.
The first sort of skepticism, which questions, for any given perception, whether
we can distinguish it from a mere imagination, doesn't seem to trouble Kant.
This, he says "must be ascertained according to its particular determinations and
through its coherence with the criteria of all actual experience." In other
words, if we can tell that a particular perceptual experience is actually a
perception and not merely an imagination, we will be able to do so only by
comparing it with the objects to which it appears to be related and by
determining whether the experience is coherent with the rest of our experiences.
Kant's indifference to this skeptical worry is unsurprising given that the first
Critique is less concerned with questions of the very possibility of experience
about which justificatory questions might then be raised.
http://www.lclark.edu/~rebeccac/kantskep.html
-------------------------------------
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~jlbermud/transcendental%25idealism.pdf
http://www.fordham.edu/philosophy/davenport/texts/refideal.htm
http://philarete.home.mindspring.com/philosophy/kant.html
Post by gaffo
Decarte was right with Meditations then went beyond what he could prove.
Cogito, Ergo Sum (The Circle Game) Descartes
THE CIRCLE GAME: "Descartes was a philosophical disaster!" Attacking Descate's
Cogito from within Descartes's own logical structure rather than from a modern
context.
Examining Descartes's philosophy from within its own logical structure, we see
that Descartes is unable to escape the necessity of an observer in his attempt to
find a foundation for his philosophy. As I will show, he grounds his philosophy
on the postulates of his ability to discern truth from fiction and his own
existence. Descartes foundationalist philosophy fails, as a result, because
neither the infallibility and integrity of the observer nor the observer's
existence are certain.
Descartes attempts to create a foundationalist philosophy based on a single,
undeniable truth which he knows to be "fixed and assured". He takes "I think,
therefore I am" "as the first principle of the philosophy I was seeking",
believing that this is the only truth which is necessary to found a philosophy.
His logical structure , however, relies on a second postulate. He claims that
"the capacity to judge correctly and to distinguish the true from the false is
naturally equal in all men". This postulate is more fundamental to his logical
structure than the cogito because without it, he cannot escape the skepticism of
his foundationalist structure.
Unpacking the significance of this postulate is somewhat of a metaphysical
thicket, but the effort is well rewarded. There is no question that by thinking
"I think, therefore I am", Descartes is thinking. Beyond the statement of his
existence, however, Descartes cannot form any other conclusion unless he has the
ability to discern the truth of a thought-except the conclusion that he is, there
is no method to discern a true thought from a thought implanted into his head by
an other being unless he can make the distinction himself. If he is to make any
progress in his philosophy, he must rely on this second postulate.
Even with this condition, Descartes's philosophy remains unstable. His first
postulate, the cogito, fails because it depends on the integrity of the subject,
the ego. Unlike a similar postulate of mathematics, such as x+0=x, which does not
depend on the integrity of the observer in order to be true, Descartes's
postulate is singularly tied to the subject because the subject, the "I", is an
integral part of the statement. In the postulate, the "I" must be distinct since
the cogito makes no claims about the existence of anything outside the mind.
Descartes admits, however, that the mind is subject to failings caused by the
"the mind depends so much on the temperament and on the disposition of the organs
of the body, that if it is possible to find some means of rendering men as a
whole wiser and more dexterous than they have been hitherto, I believe it must be
sought in medicine".
Furthermore, the mind cannot be sure of even its own state. Descartes admits that
"there are no conclusive signs by means of which one can distinguish clearly
between being awake and being asleep". Most significantly, however, Descartes
requires the fallibility of his mind in order to prove the existence of God.
Within his proof, Descartes gives as an antecedent to his argument the
observation that "my being was not completely perfect" when it was created. But
the infallible ability to discern truth is, by nature of its indisputeability, a
form of perfection. He appears to be directly contradicting his second postulate,
the ability to discern truth from fiction. This logical breakdown within
Descartes's argument hints at a much greater problem, however.
Descartes has a problem of authorship. That he exists and that he conceives of
his existence are synonymous according to the cogito postulate. Furthermore, the
existence of anything outside of his mind depends on his own existence. He is
assured of the existence of the rest of the Universe by his perception of
thinking of it. If the observer stops observing himself, he ceases to exist,
however. Thus the reality of the Universe within Descartes's system depends on
his ability to conceive of it, which in turn requires that he exist. This
introduces a rather interesting problem in to his philosophy.
By the time he has completed his proof of the existence of God, Descartes
concludes that his own existence is dependent of the existence of God. Because he
creates a foundationalist philosophy, Descartes must believe that the laws of the
Universe are deriveable from the cogito postulate. After attempting to establish
the existence of God, however, he admits that "I have observed certain laws which
God has so established in nature and of which he has impressed such notions in
our souls". According to his postulates, all that is in Descartes's mind is the
result of the fact that he thinks, yet here he seems to be adding yet another
subject to the set of actors upon which his philosophy rests. The validity of the
claims he has already made are again questioned by further doubt over the author
"And who can give me the assurance that this God has not arranged that there
should be no earth, no heaven, no extended body, no figure, no magnitude, or
place, and that nevertheless I should have the perception of all these things,
and the persuasion that they do not exist other than as I see them?"
Clearly, Descartes would not want to add dependency on a second subject to his
philosophy but he nonetheless accepts the notion that not all existence can be
"if the objective reality of any one of my ideas is such that I know clearly that
it is not within me, either formally or eminently, and that consequently I cannot
myself be its cause, it follows necessarily from this that I am not alone in the
world, but that there is besides some other being who exists, and who is the
cause of this idea."
It is illogical that such a being, whose existence in the Universe is dependent
on the thoughts and observations of an observer could also be the author of the
same observer's thoughts. Surely Descartes realized this but he seems to ignore
its significance. He declares "God is necessarily the author of my existence" and
so falls into a circular dependency, where his own existence is dependent on a
God whose existence in the Universe is dependent on Descartes's ability to
conceive of God and to determine the truth of such a perception. Because the
observer is thus permanently trapped within Descartes's web of logic, the entire
foundation of the structure is unsound.
With the foundation of Descartes carefully laid structure crumbling in front of
close examination, it appears, a philosophical failure. Such an evaluation is
made strong if it comes from within the logical structure that Descartes
presents. The job is easy, however, because Descartes establishes such a
dependent, recursive structure that his entire fabrication falls under its own
twisted weight.
http://www.stanford.edu/~bwark/papers/circle_game.html
Post by gaffo
Hume had a realistic outlook in not assumng a truth underneath one's
experiences.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml
http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)
"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.
If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine
"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.
"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter
"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.
"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister
"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.
"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)
"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.
"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04
"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04
"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader
RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?
BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.
RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?
BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04
"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04
"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03
"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03
"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001
"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."
"He threatens not the United States."
"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."
'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Tell me Mr. Solipsist, if the world doesn't exist why have you decided to be
persuaded by liberal propoganda in it?
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Craig Franck
2004-09-20 01:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim you are a
solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting memories
to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects to
correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.

So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
--
Craig Franck
***@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
Immortalist
2004-09-20 17:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim you are a
solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting memories
to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects to
correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
As Kant might ask, "but didn't your actions, in writing the above, require space
and time, to be written in?"
Post by Craig Franck
--
Craig Franck
Cortland, NY
gaffo
2004-09-23 02:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim you
are a
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting memories
to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects to
correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
As Kant might ask, "but didn't your actions, in writing the above, require space
and time, to be written in?"
Post by Craig Franck
--
Craig Franck
Cortland, NY
"space" and "time" are concepts best left to Physics and assumes an
external reality. A reality which is beleived in through faith - not proof.

Has anyone lived in the past or the future? (or if you a Solipsist -
have you lived in the past or the future?).

no and no.

only the Present exists as a knowable thing.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Immortalist
2004-09-23 04:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim you
are a
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting memories
to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects to
correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
As Kant might ask, "but didn't your actions, in writing the above, require space
and time, to be written in?"
Post by Craig Franck
--
Craig Franck
Cortland, NY
"space" and "time" are concepts best left to Physics and assumes an
external reality. A reality which is beleived in through faith - not proof.
But how could you write those words unless there was space and time to do so. You
contradict yourself by claiming that simple logic is a province of specialists.

Then you through in some diddy about logical positivism or foundationalism and
belief and proof trying to predict my position on those while I ponder;

http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm

1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose justification
does not depend on that of any further emperical beliefs.

2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a reason
why it is likely to be true.

3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive possession
of such a reason.

4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he believes
with justification the premises from which it follows that the belief is
likely to be true.

5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least one
empirical premise.

6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the
justification of at least one other empirical belief, contradicting 1.

7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely justified
sceptical beliefs.
Post by gaffo
Has anyone lived in the past or the future? (or if you a Solipsist -
have you lived in the past or the future?).
Actually some nueroscientists believe that one moment consists of the past
becoming the furture in the "processing cycle."

Since consciousness really happens during the transition from some states of
configuration in the brain to others, it is a irriducable emergent and contextual
process bound in clock time. Of course it is lost but the structures that
produced it are altered by producing it over the span of the transition. So the
present configuration represents all you know and remember when it transits
through "The_Processing_Cycle" and self-alters itself progressively. In a sense
the activities of your brain are constantly resurrecting you, at least when
conscious of such fleeting patterns of processes, and the patterns of processes,
you have influenced and are influenced by, in the world's fleeting associations
creating an arrow of time by organizational change.

McCrone on your Processing Cycle[s]:
http://tinyurl.com/ay3s
Post by gaffo
no and no.
only the Present exists as a knowable thing.
But if the present is just the intersection of the past and the future where do
you live, in the past present and future. If neural activities stopped the
processing cycle would stop, more simple logic.

But it seems besides the point because space and time are necessary and you
havn't been able to refute that contention yet.
Craig Franck
2004-09-24 00:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
"space" and "time" are concepts best left to Physics and assumes an
external reality. A reality which is beleived in through faith - not proof.
It's not faith that an external reality of mind-independent things is the
simplest explanation that explains the most. This is all realists claim,
whether they realize it or not.
Post by gaffo
Has anyone lived in the past or the future? (or if you a Solipsist -
have you lived in the past or the future?).
no and no.
Present mental states refer to past mental states. This must be the
case if you are capable of language.
Post by gaffo
only the Present exists as a knowable thing.
And when did you come by this piece of knowledge?
--
Craig Franck
***@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
Elroy Willis
2004-09-22 19:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim
you are a solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting
memories to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects
to correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
You're still terrified of dying or ceasing to exist, if you're
actually going down that line of reasoning and taking it seriously,
imo.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://www.eapnews.com
gaffo
2004-09-23 02:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim
you are a solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting
memories to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects
to correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
You're still terrified of dying or ceasing to exist, if you're
actually going down that line of reasoning and taking it seriously,
imo.
on the contrary - you are God. there is no reason to think that the end
of your life will result in the end of your existance (or that it will not).


"future" - as in the beleive in your eventual death is also taken on faith.

only the present is knowable/verifiable.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Immortalist
2004-09-23 04:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
--------------------
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Craig Franck
Post by Immortalist
Are you saying you don't exist then? Or if you are bold enough to claim
you are a solipsist and exist, what are you existing in?
I only asked the question above.

(> >> Immortalist wrote)

--------------------
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Craig Franck
The present moment, I guess. Russell's criticism was that trusting
memories to correspond to previous mental states but not allowing objects
to correspond to mind-independent objects was so inconsistent as to render
solipsism an untenable position.
So you must live totally in the present. Logical argumentation is ruled out
because you must string thoughts together. This combined with the problem
of a totally private language, and the establishment of the logical conception
of a 'self' when there are no others, means if solipsism were true, you should
not be able to determine this.
You're still terrified of dying or ceasing to exist, if you're
actually going down that line of reasoning and taking it seriously,
imo.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://www.eapnews.com
block
2004-09-20 05:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Well if light particles aren't bad enough, what do you think of my creation
called "man"? I have built them out of chemicals this time rather than
machine-like androids - do you (as a Solipsist) consider this an
improvement? Can you see them? Hear them? Do they exist in your world?
Keynes
2004-09-23 10:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by block
Post by gaffo
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Well if light particles aren't bad enough, what do you think of my creation
called "man"? I have built them out of chemicals this time rather than
machine-like androids - do you (as a Solipsist) consider this an
improvement? Can you see them? Hear them? Do they exist in your world?
Some say the mind exists in the world, and they then go on
to say that the world must necessarily exist in the mind.
(For the world only exists as much as it is known.)

If the world exists in the mind, why insist there is a world
beyond the mind? Not parsimonious. Beyond proof as well.

But even accepting that the mind exists in the world, what are
the contents of the mind? Is there anything in a mind that
has not come in from the 'outside'? That being so, the
distinction between inside and outside is arbitrary.
You are in my mind and I am in yours.

Subjectivity is our true being apart from gender, social role,
or our constantly changing fortunes and circumstances.
Subjectivity is considered a feature of the mechanical mind,
by some unexplainable process. But body and brain are
objects. Thoughts and feelings are objects. Objects only
exist for a subject. Whatever we can think and know are
merely objects of our inexplicable subjectivity.
Dixit
2004-09-23 16:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
(For the world only exists as much as it is known.)
What are you saying here, that things pop into existence only the moment
they are discovered? If that is true, then what is it that is being
discovered, what was killing all those medical patients before Louis
Pasteur discovered it was toxic germ infection?
Virgil
2004-09-23 21:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
(For the world only exists as much as it is known.)
What are you saying here, that things pop into existence only the moment
they are discovered?
That's Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple's personal thesis, so you are
ppoaching on his ground.
Brian
2004-09-21 18:14:28 UTC
Permalink
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
Post by gaffo
interesting - like Light is a Particle and/or a Wave. or the conflict
between relativity and quantum mechanics.
being a Solipsist myself "light" "particle" "wave"/etc. have no external
reality - or if they do I cannot prove they do. for sanity I assume they
do of course.
Post by Immortalist
The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary being as the
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first member or
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists inside or
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from reason's
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for infinite
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to spatio-temporal
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of freedom and
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims that there
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to appearances. In
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This result is
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason cannot prove
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and room is left
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some other way.
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason beyond its
boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the world, whether
as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every event is
contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes, for its
complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time, since it
contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain the
unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in the world as
its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there can be none.
The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical conditions
is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be subject to
the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to the
original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The supposition of an
absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world, also
destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And yet, to act
as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
you must be in the alt.philosophy group.................been many yrs
since Kant.
Solipsism is the only valid philosophy IMO. Kant was full of it.
Decarte was right with Meditations then went beyond what he could prove.
Hume had a realistic outlook in not assumng a truth underneath one's
experiences.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml
http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)
"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.
If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine
"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.
"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter
"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.
"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister
"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.
"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)
"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.
"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04
"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04
"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader
RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?
BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.
RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?
BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04
"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04
"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03
"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03
"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001
"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."
"He threatens not the United States."
"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."
'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
block
2004-09-21 18:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
interest
Immortalist
2004-09-22 03:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
gaffo
2004-09-23 02:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
good - I agree fully.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Immortalist
2004-09-23 04:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
good - I agree fully.
Glad we agree!
Post by gaffo
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml
http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)
"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush
"John Kerry says the 'W' in George W. Bush stands for 'Wrong.' But he still can't
explain what John Kerry stands for." -David Letterman

"John Kerry keeping a low profile this week. He said he wanted to get away and go
someplace where no one would expect to see him. So I guess he showed up at his
old seat in the Senate. Nobody's going to look for him there." -Jay Leno

"You see the pictures in the paper today of John Kerry windsurfing? He's at his
home in Nantucket this week, doing his favorite thing, windsurfing. Even his
hobby depends on which way the wind blows." -Jay Leno

"Have you folks been following the controversy with John Kerry and his service in
Vietnam and the Swift Boat campaign? It all took place in Vietnam and now it just
won't go away. I was thinking about this - if John Kerry had just ducked the war
like everybody else he wouldn't have this trouble." -David Letterman

"The latest issue of GQ magazine, John Kerry talks about what a man should look
for in a woman. GQ? If John Kerry is going to talk about what he likes in a
woman, shouldn't it be in Fortune or Money magazine?" --Jay Leno

"Vice President Dick Cheney attacked John Kerry. He said that John Kerry 'lacks
deeply held convictions.' Today Kerry shot back, he said, 'That's not completely
true.'" -Jay Leno

"John Kerry told Tom Ridge he was too busy to receive a Homeland Security
briefing. I thought that was odd, since you're not supposed to ignore terrorist
threats until after you become president." -David Letterman

"There was an embarrassing moment at a recent Democratic fundraiser. When John
Kerry was handed a $10 million dollar check, he said, 'I do.'" -Craig Kilborn

"John Kerry suspended his campaign for five days this week in honor of President
Reagan. And right now, he's ahead in the polls. How's that make him feel?
Disappears for a week and he's up in the polls. What else can he do now but go
into hiding." -Jay Leno

"'Shrek 2' made over $120 million during its first week. In a related story, John
Kerry asked Shrek to marry him." -Conan O'Brien

"John Kerry met with Ralph Nader last week. Both sides of every issue were
discussed. And then, Nader spoke." -Jay Leno

"This is so weird. I saw the new John Kerry campaign commercial and he says, 'I'm
John Kerry and I approve of this message - if I have one.'" -Craig Kilborn

"John Kerry and Ralph Nader met face-to-face, it was a historic meeting.
Astronomers said today their meeting actually created what is called a 'charisma
black hole.'" -Jay Leno

"Gas prices are up, the stock market is down, Iraq is a mess and John Kerry is
saying, 'How am I gonna beat this guy?" -David Letterman

"Bill Clinton has a brand new book coming out in a few months and the Democrats
are worried that the Clinton book might upstage the Kerry campaign. I'm thinking,
hell, day-old meat loaf could upstage that campaign." -David Letterman

"The campaign for the White House is heating up with John Kerry taking heat for
throwing his Vietnam medals away, getting a $1000 haircut, and wearing a 1970s
wig known as 'the Leno.' There are really two sides to this story. And America
can't wait for Kerry to present both of them." -David Letterman

"President Bush said John Kerry is on both sides of every issue. And Kerry
replied, 'No, I'm not ... but there is some truth to that.' " -Craig Kilborn

"The prisoner scandal is yet another election year problem for President Bush.
And, with the economy still struggling, combat operations in Iraq dragging on,
and the 9-11 hearings revealing damning information, even an opponent of limited
political skill should be able to capitalize on those problems. The Democrats,
however, chose to nominate John Kerry." -Jon Stewart

"Insiders have begun voicing serious concerns about how he's conducting his
campaign. One aide told the New York Times that while Bush's message of 'steady
leadership' has remained consistent, Kerry has gone through six different
messages in the 18 months he's been running, including, at one particularly
desperate juncture, 'Kerry: Health care jobs for the troops' environment.'" -Jon
Stewart

"John Kerry spent the day reading to preschoolers ... and the kids said Kerry
actually lacked warmth and failed to articulate a clear message." -David
Letterman

"Lot of people wondering if John Kerry supports gay marriages. Here's a hint ...
he gets $1,000 haircuts." -Craig Kilborn

"Courtney Love said she once escorted Kerry to a concert. John Kerry once went
out with Courtney Love and he's questioning Bush's judgment." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry announced his plan for how to handle those poor naked prisoners. His
wife is going to buy them all a $1,000 Armani suit." -Craig Kilborn

"Kerry was here in Los Angeles. He was courting the Spanish vote by speaking
Spanish. And he showed people he could be boring in two languages." -Jay Leno

"President Bush listed his income as $822,000. You know what John Kerry calls
someone who earns $822,000? Not even worth dating." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry fell off of his bicycle over the weekend. He went for a Sunday
afternoon ride, fell off in front of the news media. Luckily, his hair broke the
fall so it's not as serious. ... Thankfully, Senator Kerry was not seriously
injured. In fact, when the police arrived, Kerry was well enough to give
conflicting reports to the officers about what happened." -Jay Leno

"Please explain to me why John Kerry sounds more dickish telling the truth than
Bush sounds when he's lying. How is that possible?" -Jon Stewart

"John Kerry's wife Teresa Heinz is on the cover of Newsweek magazine this week
and they said that if he is elected president, she will be the oldest first lady
in American history. But that doesn't bother John Kerry, he said, 'To me, she
looks like a million bucks'" -Jay Leno

"John Kerry reportedly flew in his private hairdresser before his "Meet the
Press" interview for a total cost of $1,000. That's $1,000 for a haircut, which
sounds like a lot, but have you seen the size of Kerry's head." -Jay Leno

"Well the good news for Democrats, now over half the country can identify a
picture of John Kerry. The bad news, the majority still thinks he's the dad from
'The Munsters."' -Jay Leno

"John Kerry had surgery on his right shoulder this week to repair some damage. It
was pretty bad, he had no feeling. It was almost like he was a
Republican." -David Letterman

"John Kerry accused President Bush of catering to the rich. You know, as opposed
to John Kerry who just marries them." -Jay Leno

"They say John Kerry is the first Democratic presidential candidate in history to
raise $50 million in a three-month period. Actually, that's nothing. He once
raised $500 million with two words: 'I do.'" -Jay Leno

"Senator Kerry recovering very nicely after having shoulder surgery. The doctors
said the senator was fully awake, lucid and joking after the surgery was done,
but cautioned that that was just the drug. He went back to his boring self soon
afterward." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry will undergo surgery to repair his right shoulder. He originally hurt
it when he suddenly switched positions on Iraq." -Craig Kilborn

"Today, John Kerry announced a fool-proof plan to wipe out the $500B deficit.
John Kerry has a plan, he's going to put it on his wife's Gold Card." -Craig
Kilborn

"We make jokes about it but the truth is this presidential election really offers
us a choice of two well-informed opposing positions on every issue. OK, they both
belong to John Kerry, but they're still there." -Jay Leno

"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry.
You can understand why - with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many
people mad at him." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry says that foreign leaders want him to be president, but that he can't
name the foreign leaders. That's all right, President Bush can't name them
either." -David Letterman

"John Kerry is busy trying to raise money right now for his campaign. It was
reported today that Kerry's hoping to raise $80 million before the Democratic
convention. That's a lot of money. Yeah, Kerry has two ways to raise the $80
million: soliciting Democratic donors and going through his wife's purse." -Conan
O'Brien

"John Kerry says that he wants to debate President Bush once a month until the
election. This could be a risky move for Senator Kerry. If Bush doesn't show up
for the debates, John Kerry may end up debating an empty chair. And that could be
pretty much a toss up as to which one has the better personality." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry described his Republican critics as 'the most crooked, lying group
I've ever seen.' Now, that's saying something, because Kerry's both a lawyer and
a politician." -Jay Leno

"The White House begun airing their TV commercials to re-elect the president, and
the John Kerry campaign is condemning his use of 9/11 in the ads. He said, it is
unconscionable to use the tragic memory of a war in order to get elected, unless
of course, it's the Vietnam War." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry has promised to take this country back from the wealthy. Who better
than the guy worth $700 million to take the country back? See, he knows how the
wealthy think. He can spy on them at his country club, at his place in Palm
Beach, at his house in the Hamptons. He's like a mole for the working man." -Jay
Leno

"I'm worried about John Kerry, he's so confident now that he's already planning
his White House sex scandal." -David Letterman

"John Kerry will be the Democratic nominee for president. Democrats finally found
someone who is Al Gore without the flash and the sizzle." -Craig Kilborn

"Earlier today, President Bush said Kerry will be a tough and hard-charging
opponent. That explains why Bush's nickname for Kerry is math." -Conan O'Brien

"Kerry has already begun his search for a running mate. They say that because
John Edwards still has $50 million in campaign money, Kerry might pick him. Pick
him? Hey, for $50 million, Kerry will marry him." -Jay Leno

"Yesterday Senator John Kerry changed his mind and now supports the ban on gay
marriages. I'm telling you this guy has more positions than Paris Hilton." -David
Letterman

"During last night's debate, John Kerry and John Edwards were so friendly to each
other some political experts think that they may end up running together. In fact
Kerry and Edwards were so friendly, President Bush accused them of planning a gay
marriage." -Conan O'Brien

"It really kind of looks like now that John Kerry is on his way to the
presidential nomination. The only thing that can sink John Kerry now is an Al
Gore endorsement." -Jay Leno

"According to a new study, Botox injections can help back pain. So you see,
that's why John Kerry had all that Botox - his back was killing him from all that
flip-flopping on issues." -Jay Leno

"An Internet rumor claims that John Kerry had an affair with a young woman. When
asked if this was similar to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, a spokesman said
'Close, but no cigar.'" -Jimmy Fallon, Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update"

"Over the weekend, John Kerry - the big John Kerry juggernaut moves on - he won
primaries in Washington D.C., Nevada and, I think, Canada. And he's so confident
that he's started nailing that intern again." -David Letterman

"Presidential campaign getting kind of ugly, did you hear about this? Yesterday,
a 27-year-old woman came for to deny rumors that she had an affair with
Democratic front-runner John Kerry. The woman added, 'I would never cheat on Bill
Clinton.'" -Conan O'Brien

"Senator John Kerry released his plan today to eliminate the deficit. He said all
we have to do is find a really rich country like Switzerland and marry it." -Jay
Leno

"The head of the AFL-CIO endorsed John Kerry, saying, 'The time has come to come
behind one man, one leader, one candidate.' Then he said, 'And until we find that
man, we will endorse John Kerry.'" -Conan O'Brien

"The Democrats are all over this. Democratic strategists feel John Kerry's war
record means he can beat Bush. They say when it comes down to it voters will
always vote for a war hero over someone who tried to get out of the war. I'll be
sure to mention that to Bob Dole when I see him." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry said today that he wants to get rid of tax cuts for the rich and his
wife said, 'Hey, shut up! What's the matter with you?! Are you nuts?!'" -Jay Leno

"They had a profile of John Kerry on the news and they said his first wife was
worth around $300 million and his second wife, his current wife, is worth around
$700 million. So when John Kerry says he's going after the wealthy in this
country, he's not just talking. He's doing it!" -Jay Leno

"In a new issue of Esquire magazine, they revealed that before he was married to
Teresa Heinz, Senator John Kerry dated Morgan Fairchild, Michelle Phillips,
Catherine Oxenberg and Dana Delany. Finally a Democratic presidential candidate
with good taste in women." -Jay Leno

"It's nine months before the election and Bush's poll numbers have fallen to the
exact level that his father's poll numbers were nine months before he lost to Bil
l Clinton. Today front runner John Kerry said he's not superstitious, but just to
be on the safe side, he's going to start f---ing everything that moves." -Bill
Maher

"John Kerry was officially endorsed by Dick Gephardt, and Kerry said, 'What did I
ever do to you?'" -Craig Kilborn

"A number of plastic surgeons are claiming that looking at John Kerry now, as
opposed to a few months ago, they believe he's had Botox shots. They claim a
number of his worry lines have vanished. They haven't vanished, just Howard Dean
is wearing them now." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry is finding out that it is no fun to be the front runner, that's when
you get all the heat. He had to deny internet rumors this week that he had Botox
treatments. The Republicans say Kerry should have a clear, unfurrowed brow the
old fashioned way by not giving a sh--." -Bill Maher

"In his big victory speech last night, Senator Kerry said that he wanted to
defeat George Bush and the 'economy of privilege.' Then he hugged his wife,
Teresa, heir to the multi-million dollar Heinz food fortune." -Jay Leno

"Political experts are saying the reason John Kerry is doing so well is because
he's 'electable.' Hey, so was Al Gore - in fact, he even got elected and it
didn't help him at all." -Jay Leno

"A new poll shows that Senator Kerry's support in the South is strongest amongst
blacks. Kerry's appeal to Southern blacks is obvious. He is a white man who lives
far, far away." -Dennis Miller

"The big winner last night in New Hampshire - Senator John Kerry. He won 39
percent of the vote, which is pretty good, and begs the question, why the long
face?" -Jay Leno

"Real movement in the Kerry campaign now. His poll numbers are moving, donations
are moving, endorsements are moving. The only thing not moving is his hair." -Jay
Leno

"In his speech last night, John Kerry said this was the beginning of the end of
the Bush administration. I agree. Sure, it may take another five years, but this
is it." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry's victory over Howard Dean has completely changed the presidential
race around. Now instead of the rich white guy from Yale who lives in the White
house facing off against the rich white guy from Yale who lives in Vermont, he
may have to face the rich white guy from Yale who lives in Massachusetts. It's a
whole different game." -Jay Leno

"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush
49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a
threat to world peace." -Jay Leno

"During the Democratic presidential debate Howard Dean started off by apologizing
to the crowd for having a cold. Then John Kerry apologized for once having a cold
while serving his country in Vietnam." -Conan O'Brien

"John Kerry was the big winner in Iowa. Ted Kennedy introduced Kerry as the
'comeback kid.' That used to be Bill Clinton's name - because every time he would
come back to a city, he would find out if he had a kid or not." -Jay Leno

"These campaigns are getting so nasty. They are going through people's old taxes,
coming up with these old quotes. Today, somebody released footage of John Kerry
throwing apples at Dorothy. To me he just looks like the tree from 'The Wizard of
Oz.'" -Bill Maher

"Ted Kennedy is endorsing John Kerry and I'm wondering, do you really want the
endorsement of a guy with a Bloody Mary mustache?" -David Letterman

"In an interview with Rolling Stone, Senator John Kerry, who is running for
president, said that when he voted for the war in Iraq, he didn't expect
President Bush to 'f--- it up as badly as he did.' Here's some breaking news,
tomorrow former Vice President Al Gore expected to endorse Howard Dean as the
Democratic nominee for president of the United States - and you thought John
Kerry was using four letter words before! Actually, to John Kerry, Dean is a four
letter word." -Jay Leno

"Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry came down pretty hard on fellow
candidate Howard Dean this weekend. After Dean misspoke several times, Kerry said
you can't misspeak 15 times in a week and be president. And Bush said, 'You
can't'?" -Jay Leno

"The Boston Globe is reporting that Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry
used to date actress Morgan Fairchild but it didn't work out. Apparently she
couldn't handle dating someone with bigger hair then she had." -Jay Leno

"John Kerry is recovering nicely after having prostate surgery. But the doctors
did tell him it would be several months before he could be sexually active again.
All the other Democratic candidates have been very supportive. Joe Lieberman
called to wish him the best. The Rev. Al Sharpton called to offer prayers. Former
President Bill Clinton called Mrs. Kerry and asked if she was lonely." -Jay Leno
Post by gaffo
...administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.
If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine
"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.
"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter
"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.
"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister
"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.
"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)
"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.
"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04
"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04
"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader
RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?
BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.
RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?
BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04
"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04
"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03
"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03
"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001
"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."
"He threatens not the United States."
"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."
'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Keynes
2004-09-23 11:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.

That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.

In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
Dixit
2004-09-23 16:43:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.
That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.
In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
'Could be'?? What leads to that conclusion, just that there is no proof
that hypothesis is false?

See, that's the logically fatal problem with the very idea of theism and
solipsism => the only way to ever reach a conclusion that either of
those propositions is true is to simply take it for granted from the get
go (begging the question), then argue there is no proof the hypothesis
is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_):

<quote>
Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad ignorantiam_ given
in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading astronomers of his time
the mountains and valleys on the moon that could be seen through his
telescope. Some scholars of that age, absolutely convinced that the moon
was a perfect sphere, as theology and Aristotelian science had long
taught, argued against Galileo that, although we see what appear to be
mountains and valleys, the moon is in fact a perfect sphere, because all
its apparent irregularities are filled in by an invisible crystalline
substance. And this hypothesis, which saves the perfection of the
heavenly bodies, Galileo could not prove false!
</quote>
(Copi and Cohen, _Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)

[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means a speculative, 'might be'
imagining with no basis in fact.]
Virgil
2004-09-23 18:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.
That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.
In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
'Could be'?? What leads to that conclusion
Just speculation. A person who requires certainty in all things is
destined fo a dull life. Just look at Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple.
Dixit
2004-09-23 22:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.
That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.
In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
'Could be'?? What leads to that conclusion
Just speculation.
Solipsism can't be. It's a totally irrational idea.
The only way to arrive at a conclusion solipsism might be is to take
that hypothesis for granted (begging the question) then argue there is
no proof it is false. That's logical fallacy. Sound familiar?
block
2004-09-23 22:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Solipsism can't be. It's a totally irrational idea.
The only way to arrive at a conclusion solipsism might be is to take
that hypothesis for granted (begging the question) then argue there is
no proof it is false. That's logical fallacy. Sound familiar?
You obviously have no idea of the thoughts and emotions that go into a
conclusion of Solipsism.
Imagine a world of emptiness - OK so you can see things, hear things, but
deep down you know it is only an illusion created by yourself.
Imagine an existence, where the final conclusion only ever is
"There is only me"
And however you jazz it up - call it planet earth, call it reality, call it
a temporary respite. At the end of the day, people can be unpredictable
(programmed), imaginative (programmed), surprising (programmed) and your
reality is limited only by your own intelligence of how to outwit yourself
to convince yourself that there is something that is real, when all the time
you feel the loneliness of the knowledge that nothing else and no one else
exists.
Virgil
2004-09-24 01:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Virgil
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.
That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.
In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
'Could be'?? What leads to that conclusion
Just speculation.
Solipsism can't be. It's a totally irrational idea.
What god declared that the world has to be rational?
Post by Dixit
The only way to arrive at a conclusion solipsism might be is to take
that hypothesis for granted (begging the question) then argue there is
no proof it is false. That's logical fallacy. Sound familiar?
Why need the solipsist, having taken solipsism for granted, argue
anything? Would he even acknowledge that there was anybody to argue with?

I know that I am not the supreme expert on everything that Septic Capon,
the Simple Pimple, claims to be, but I see no reason for any solipsist
to follow rules set down by Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, unless the
solipsist was actually Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, of course.
Immortalist
2004-09-23 17:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?
Solipsism doesn't require that the subject has any control over
or understanding of the contents of his mind. Just that there is a
roiling of stimulations forming coherent patterns, more or less.
That a solipsist would consider what to do doesn't follow either.
He could pray in his imagination to imaginary gods or to kill
imaginary foes, as the occasion arises. He could have imaginary
freinds and imaginary arguments. He could fear imaginary
pains and an imaginary death.
In this life, we seem to be in an uncontrollable situation full
of surprises. Solipsism could be just like that too.
But the solipsist has not disproven the need for time and space, hence the world,
when he contends anything at all in time and space. Time and space necessariy
take place in something and at sometime?
Dixit
2004-09-23 17:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent ...
Not true. It is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the
outset that one's theory is true (begging the quesition).
Post by Immortalist
... but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) ...
That's the problem with solipsism. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion solipsism is true is to simply take it for granted as a
premise (begging the question) then argue _ad ignorantiam_ 'it cannot be
disproved'.

(Same problem with theism.)

<quote>
Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad ignorantiam_ given
in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading astronomers of his time
the mountains and valleys on the moon that could be seen through his
telescope. Some scholars of that age, absolutely convinced that the moon
was a perfect sphere, as theology and Aristotelian science had long
taught, argued against Galileo that, although we see what appear to be
mountains and valleys, the moon is in fact a perfect sphere, because all
its apparent irregularities are filled in by an invisible crystalline
substance. And this hypothesis, which saves the perfection of the
heavenly bodies, Galileo could not prove false!
</quote>
(Copi and Cohen, _Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)

[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means a speculative, 'might be'
imagining with no basis in fact.]
Immortalist
2004-09-23 17:49:19 UTC
Permalink
I am not the Rooster that said these things. "Brian" said the things that you are
comenting on, didn't yo daddy teach you to read carefully?
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent ...
Not true. It is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the
outset that one's theory is true (begging the quesition).
Post by Immortalist
... but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) ...
That's the problem with solipsism. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion solipsism is true is to simply take it for granted as a
premise (begging the question) then argue _ad ignorantiam_ 'it cannot be
disproved'.
(Same problem with theism.)
<quote>
Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad ignorantiam_ given
in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading astronomers of his time
the mountains and valleys on the moon that could be seen through his
telescope. Some scholars of that age, absolutely convinced that the moon
was a perfect sphere, as theology and Aristotelian science had long
taught, argued against Galileo that, although we see what appear to be
mountains and valleys, the moon is in fact a perfect sphere, because all
its apparent irregularities are filled in by an invisible crystalline
substance. And this hypothesis, which saves the perfection of the
heavenly bodies, Galileo could not prove false!
</quote>
(Copi and Cohen, _Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)
[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means a speculative, 'might be'
imagining with no basis in fact.]
Dixit
2004-09-23 22:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
I am not the Rooster that said these things. "Brian" said the things that you are
comenting on, didn't yo daddy teach you to read carefully?
Check the attributions. It is your words I am commenting on. You are the
one who said, "solipsism is logically coherent." That is not true. It
is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the outset that
one's theory is true (begging the quesition). That's what solipsists do.
Post by Immortalist
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making
one
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is
logically
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
coherent ...
Not true. It is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the
outset that one's theory is true (begging the quesition).
Post by Immortalist
... but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) ...
That's the problem with solipsism. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion solipsism is true is to simply take it for granted as a
premise (begging the question) then argue _ad ignorantiam_ 'it cannot be
disproved'.
(Same problem with theism.)
<quote>
Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad ignorantiam_ given
in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading astronomers of his time
the mountains and valleys on the moon that could be seen through his
telescope. Some scholars of that age, absolutely convinced that the moon
was a perfect sphere, as theology and Aristotelian science had long
taught, argued against Galileo that, although we see what appear to be
mountains and valleys, the moon is in fact a perfect sphere, because all
its apparent irregularities are filled in by an invisible crystalline
substance. And this hypothesis, which saves the perfection of the
heavenly bodies, Galileo could not prove false!
</quote>
(Copi and Cohen, _Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)
[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means a speculative, 'might be'
imagining with no basis in fact.]
block
2004-09-23 23:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
I am not the Rooster that said these things. "Brian" said the things that you are
comenting on, didn't yo daddy teach you to read carefully?
Check the attributions. It is your words I am commenting on. You are the
one who said, "solipsism is logically coherent." That is not true. It
is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the outset that
one's theory is true (begging the quesition). That's what solipsists do.
Might have something to do with the way you feel rather than the way you
think
Virgil
2004-09-24 01:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
"solipsism is logically coherent." That is not true. It
is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the outset that
one's theory is true (begging the quesition). That's what solipsists do.
As there is equally no (strictly logical) reason to deny solipsism out
of hand, and no way to disprove it, those who reject it out of hand are
equally question begging.

I agree that it is preferable to beg the question against solipsism,
rather than for it, but that is an entirely subjective point of view.
Immortalist
2004-09-24 03:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
I am not the Rooster that said these things. "Brian" said the things that you are
comenting on, didn't yo daddy teach you to read carefully?
Check the attributions. It is your words I am commenting on. You are the
one who said, "solipsism is logically coherent." That is not true. It
is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the outset that
one's theory is true (begging the quesition). That's what solipsists do.
True, sorry about that. But I phrased it as a hypothetical in such a way as to
say If S then P and P equals "solipsism is logically coherent" amoung other
things. Besides that solipsism can be logical coherent and still not verifiable
or it can be stated in a universal affirmative and have no existential import and
still not be true or false unil particularzation. Got the tenth edition for a
dollar fifty at the library sale and am reading it again, just read it a few
months ago, stick around its good to talk with someone who knows that book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130749214/qid=1095997539/

Lets focus on this again, besides it was just rambling so I could be totally
wrong;

<unsnip>

If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making one
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is logically
coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) by
current modes of the scientific method, but if people die you have not died, and
therefore you have not disproved it and life causes pain so why would we create
pain for ourselves, unless there may be some reason which we have decided to
forget on purpose, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored,
nonetheless, if the practical solipsist needs a language to formulate his
thoughts about solipsism and language is an essential tool to communicate with
other minds then why does a solipsist universe need a language but to keep from
becoming bored, perhaps the solipsist imagines "other" minds, which would
actually be only elements of his own mind, and which he has chosen to forget
control of for the time being, inventing a language so as to interact with these
more isolated segments of his mind, more importantly since you have no control
over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious
part of your mind creating it similarly if you make your unconscious mind the
object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it
behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism therefore,
the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the
universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different
names for the same thing henceforth both are massively complex processes external
to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences, concurently
possibly merely a semantic distinction, consequently giving meaning to posting in
a newsgroup?

</unsnip>
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
Post by Brian
I am not sure what solipsists believe. What is the point of joining a
newsgroup, and contributing to it, for a solipsist?
If solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that
"existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects,
people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind, making
one
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
like a God, creating the reality in which one existsv then solipsism is
logically
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
coherent ...
Not true. It is irrational (unreasonable) to take it for granted at the
outset that one's theory is true (begging the quesition).
Post by Immortalist
... but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) ...
That's the problem with solipsism. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion solipsism is true is to simply take it for granted as a
premise (begging the question) then argue _ad ignorantiam_ 'it cannot be
disproved'.
(Same problem with theism.)
<quote>
Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad ignorantiam_ given
in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading astronomers of his time
the mountains and valleys on the moon that could be seen through his
telescope. Some scholars of that age, absolutely convinced that the moon
was a perfect sphere, as theology and Aristotelian science had long
taught, argued against Galileo that, although we see what appear to be
mountains and valleys, the moon is in fact a perfect sphere, because all
its apparent irregularities are filled in by an invisible crystalline
substance. And this hypothesis, which saves the perfection of the
heavenly bodies, Galileo could not prove false!
</quote>
(Copi and Cohen, _Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)
[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means a speculative, 'might be'
imagining with no basis in fact.]
Virgil
2004-09-23 21:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Immortalist
... but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established (or disproved) ...
That's the problem with solipsism. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion solipsism is true is to simply take it for granted as a
premise (begging the question) then argue _ad ignorantiam_ 'it cannot be
disproved'.
Wrong! Once one assumes it, why bother to argue at all?
Dixit
2004-09-21 18:43:28 UTC
Permalink
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
block
2004-09-21 18:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Not at all. From what I understand about solipsism is that you don't
believe anything or anyone is "real" except yourself. That is totally
rational - why should anyone or anything else exist?

From my point of view, everything that is out there is what I have created.

In order to cope with the intense loneliness of this way of thinking, I have
created a planet (this one) and a reality (this one) with androids and
chemically based beings and before I was born, I brainwashed myself to
forget everything. Thus, for a short time, my loneliness and the fact that
there is nothing or no one out there apart from myself, can be assuaged.
Brian
2004-09-21 21:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by block
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Not at all. From what I understand about solipsism is that you don't
believe anything or anyone is "real" except yourself. That is totally
rational - why should anyone or anything else exist?
From my point of view, everything that is out there is what I have created.
In order to cope with the intense loneliness of this way of thinking, I have
created a planet (this one) and a reality (this one) with androids and
chemically based beings and before I was born, I brainwashed myself to
forget everything. Thus, for a short time, my loneliness and the fact that
there is nothing or no one out there apart from myself, can be assuaged.
You've been at that Avatar material - without paying, haven't you! This is
what I would refer to as the ad hoc hypothesis par excellence. Start with
the determination to be the only person in the universe, and make up
whatever is necessary to fit that one assumption to all the know
observations. You can do it! Oh, yes, anything is possible.
Dixit
2004-09-23 23:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by block
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Not at all. From what I understand about solipsism is that you don't
believe anything or anyone is "real" except yourself. That is totally
rational - why should anyone or anything else exist?
See what I mean? Totally irrational. There you go, typical solipsist or
theist, taking it for granted that your theory is the actual state of
affairs, then arguing _ad ignorantiam_ there is no proof it is false
("why should anyone or anything else exist?" as you word the argument
from ignorance).
Virgil
2004-09-24 01:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by block
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Not at all. From what I understand about solipsism is that you don't
believe anything or anyone is "real" except yourself. That is totally
rational - why should anyone or anything else exist?
See what I mean? Totally irrational. There you go, typical solipsist or
theist,
Since solipsism and theism, at least in their standard versions, are
about as antithetical as it is possible to get, I can think of nothing
typical of both that is not inherent in everyman.
Virgil
2004-09-21 21:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, as usual, misses a couple of points
here.

(1) Nobody who was truly a solipsist would bother to explain his
position to anyone, since there wouldn't be anyone (in his view of the
world) to explain it to.

(2) if one takes for granted the solipsist position, there is no point
in one arguing it further, particularly to people who are not really
there.

(3) This position is no more irrational that Septic Capon, the Simple
Pimple's claiming to KNOW things for which there is absolutely no valid
evidence.
Dixit
2004-09-23 17:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, as usual, misses a couple of points
here.
(1) Nobody who was truly a solipsist would bother to explain his
position to anyone, since there wouldn't be anyone (in his view of the
world) to explain it to.
Don't you honor the principle 'To thine own self be true'? Don't you
strive to be logically consistent in your own thinking? How could any
reasonable person let himself get away with the logical fallacy of
simply taking it for granted that theism or solipsism either one might
be true (begging the question), simply because there is no proof it is
false?
Virgil
2004-09-23 21:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Virgil
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, as usual, misses a couple of points
here.
(1) Nobody who was truly a solipsist would bother to explain his
position to anyone, since there wouldn't be anyone (in his view of the
world) to explain it to.
Don't you honor the principle 'To thine own self be true'?
Much better that Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, does.
Post by Dixit
Don't you
strive to be logically consistent in your own thinking?
Much better that Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, does.
Post by Dixit
How could any
reasonable person let himself get away with the logical fallacy of
simply taking it for granted that theism or solipsism either one might
be true (begging the question), simply because there is no proof it is
false?
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, is begging his own question here. I
would not classify anyone who accepts the solipsist premise as
reasonable. I would class them in the same category of delusional
irrationality as I class Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple.
Bob's Boyfriend
2004-09-22 05:13:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist? That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
Your relectance to EVER be considered irrational, even for a moment is
noted.
gaffo
2004-09-23 02:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist?
because I know it is impossible to proove anything beyond "I exist in
this present moment"

Now if you can - then you've done some thing I've found impossible for
20 yrs now.




That is no less irrational
Post by Dixit
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
no the contrary - I stated my "proof" above. "I exist in present moment".


I claim no other proof with which to "test" or "prove/dissprove". -
Unlike Theists.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Dixit
2004-09-23 17:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist?
because I know it is impossible to proove anything beyond "I exist in
this present moment"
Balderdash. That's just the logical fallacy of taking it for granted
that your hypothesis (solipsism in this case) is true (begging the
question).
Post by gaffo
Now if you can - then you've done some thing I've found impossible for
20 yrs now.
You mean you want it taken for granted that solipsism is true (begging
the question) unless it is proved false (argument _ad ignorantiam_)?
That's entirely fallacious argument on your part.
Post by gaffo
Post by Dixit
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist?
That is no less irrational
behavior than theism since the only way to arrive at a conclusion the
main tenet of solipsism or theism is true is to simply take that for
granted at the outset as a premise (begging the question), then argue
there is no proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_). Entirely
irrational.
no the contrary - I stated my "proof" above. "I exist in present moment".
Everything "exists in the present moment." That's not proof solipsism,
the idea that the self is the only thing, is true. You are still just
taking that for granted (begging the question).
Post by gaffo
I claim no other proof with which to "test" or "prove/dissprove". -
Unlike Theists.
You are making the same logical error theists do, taking it for granted
as a premise that your theory (solipsism in your case) is true (begging
the question), because there is no proof it is false. That kind of
argument isn't allowed, it is logical fallacy.
Virgil
2004-09-23 21:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by gaffo
because I know it is impossible to proove anything beyond "I exist in
this present moment"
You mean you want it taken for granted that solipsism is true (begging
the question) unless it is proved false?
Whereas Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, wants it taken for granted that
solipsism is false unless it is proved true.

In either case one ends by assuming the truth of something one cannot
prove. IIRC, that is called faith.
Craig Franck
2004-09-24 01:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by gaffo
Post by Dixit
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist?
because I know it is impossible to proove anything beyond "I exist in
this present moment"
Balderdash. That's just the logical fallacy of taking it for granted
that your hypothesis (solipsism in this case) is true (begging the
question).
One possible way around this is simply to state "there are thoughts" and
leave it at that. This begs no question.

However, once one begins claiming that there is an "I" who has thoughts
or is a solipsist, they have pulled in so much mental machinery and logical
framework that the entire argument collapses in on itself.
Post by Dixit
Post by gaffo
Now if you can - then you've done some thing I've found impossible for
20 yrs now.
You mean you want it taken for granted that solipsism is true (begging
the question) unless it is proved false (argument _ad ignorantiam_)?
That's entirely fallacious argument on your part.
Any Zen master would tell you the idea of doing something for 20 years
while claiming all that is knowable is the present is infinitely laughable.
--
Craig Franck
***@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
gaffo
2004-09-24 23:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by gaffo
no the contrary - I stated my "proof" above. "I exist in present moment".
Everything "exists in the present moment."
"everything"? - you make a leap of faith in claiming such a proof.


I never made such a claim. - you did. now if you can prove.."everything"
.........go right ahead.
Post by Dixit
That's not proof solipsism,
1. "I exist this moment" is not taken on faith - it is a Truth.

that you exist is taken on faith.


AFAIK "Solipsism" is the beleive that only I can determine that I exist.
(not that I only exist and there can be no others)...........only that I
cannot prove your existance to my own satisfaction. You may or you may
not exist - I cannot determine more.


maybe my definition is wrong - who knows.
Post by Dixit
the idea that the self is the only thing, is true. You are still just
taking that for granted (begging the question).
Post by gaffo
I claim no other proof with which to "test" or "prove/dissprove". -
Unlike Theists.
You are making the same logical error theists do, taking it for granted
as a premise that your theory (solipsism in your case) is true (begging
the question), because there is no proof it is false. That kind of
argument isn't allowed, it is logical fallacy.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
johnebravo836
2004-09-24 01:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by Dixit
being a Solipsist myself ...
Why would anyone ever become a solipsist?
because I know it is impossible to proove anything beyond "I exist in
this present moment"
Now if you can - then you've done some thing I've found impossible for
20 yrs now.
Maybe you've got records that prove otherwise, but there's reason to wonder
whether you've spent the last 20 years very productively. ;)
A.Christian
2004-09-20 03:25:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:40:27 -0700, "Immortalist"
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I
encountered
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the
existence
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
He merely wanted to show that the conclusion for either thesis is outside the
bounds or boundries of reason and it doesn't argue pro or con. In this is the
strongest empirical evidence for the christian. For he can claim the athiest is
going beyond what can be known by either claiming can prove or
disprove the
Post by Immortalist
theory of god.
I submit that the equivocation is still there in the argument for the
antithesis, though his own use of equivocation apparently slipped by
Kant, and others.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the
question
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
Havn't looked at this essy yet but Kant saved christianity already. Even though
he was probably an athiest his intention was to save it.
My point is that Kant, while he apparently intended to save both
Christianity and atheism, failed to save atheism.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth
antinomy,
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the
fallacy
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
of equivocation.
No equivication was commited because the two thesis are two
completely seperate
Post by Immortalist
and different kinds of theories or arguments that can be derived by induction
from the available information we have of the world.
His argument for the antithesis, by itself, contains the equivocation.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
<snip>
I don't know why you snipped this in particular. This is where the
equivocation is. More briefly:

(quoting Kant)

If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.

(end quote)

He equivocates the casuse with its causality. He states that since the
causality cannot be outside the world, so also the cause cannot be
outside the world. But this is not true. If the cause and its
causality were identical, his argument would be sound, but they are
not identical. I can reach inside a box and cause things to happen
inside the box without myself being contained in the box.

<snip>
Post by Immortalist
"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of
reasoning. It
Post by Immortalist
establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be made
explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern logician W. V.
Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.
Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily from our
attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought the
Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the
transcendent will
Post by Immortalist
always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that there is no
transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are
meaningless. They
Post by Immortalist
are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean, however,
that the transcendent defeats rational representation.
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as
'paradox' or
Post by Immortalist
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is
whether the
Post by Immortalist
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always
existed.
Post by Immortalist
The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
I am less interested in what Kant believed as in what he could prove.
The contradiction that appears to arise in the fourth antinomy is only
apparent. The argument for the antithesis is _not_ valid -- it rests
upon the equivalence of the cause with its causality, and these two
are not equivalent.
Post by Immortalist
http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary being as the
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first member or
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists inside or
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from reason's
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for infinite
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to spatio-temporal
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of freedom and
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims that there
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to
appearances. In
Post by Immortalist
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This result is
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason cannot prove
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and room is left
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some other way.
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason beyond its
boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the world, whether
as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every event is
contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes, for its
complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time, since it
contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain the
unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in the world as
its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there can be none.
The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical conditions
is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be subject to
the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to the
original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The
supposition of an
Post by Immortalist
absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world, also
destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And yet, to act
as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
The assumption that to act as a cause it must be in time is unproven,
and, I think, false. Why cannot time itself be created? Kant presented
an antinomy that is really no such thing, for one of the steps in his
reasoning -- namely, that the causality, which must be in time, is
equivalent to the cause -- is faulty. He equivocates cause with its
causality, and without this equivocation, the whole force of his
argument for the antithesis in the fourth antinomy disappears. Thus,
there is really no antinomy, at least using the arguments that Kant
presented. Confining ourselves only to Kant, it would appear that pure
speculative reason _can_ infer the existence of a necessary being, and
cannot derive the opposite without relying on fallacy.

So my question remains. Kant didn't do it successfully. Has anyone
else ever presented a non-fallacious argument on the side of the
antithesis on the fourth antinomy?

Because it would appear that if there really is no antinomy, then pure
speculative reason is _not_ out of its element when it reasons to a
necessary being, and also, that this line of reasoning is valid, and a
necessary being exists, outside the world, as its cause.
Post by Immortalist
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
I simply submit that the case for the antithesis, at least in the
fourth antinomy, is nonexistent, at least as expressed by Kant,
because as presented by him it rests on the fallacy of equivocation.

If an antinomy really exists, it must be possible to prove both sides
of it without any fallacy, which would then really point to the
inadequacy of pure reason to solve these dilemmae, and force us to
seek elsewhere for the motives of credibility.

On the other hand, if no such argument sans fallacy can be presented
for the antithesis, and the argument for the thesis yet remains valid,
it is possible that the Western world has been far too quick in
dismissing Saint Thomas Aquinas, and the motives of credibility based
on the proven existence of a Creator yet remain.
Immortalist
2004-09-20 05:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:40:27 -0700, "Immortalist"
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I
encountered
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the
existence
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This
is
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the
world,
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
He merely wanted to show that the conclusion for either thesis is
outside the
Post by Immortalist
bounds or boundries of reason and it doesn't argue pro or con. In
this is the
Post by Immortalist
strongest empirical evidence for the christian. For he can claim the
athiest is
Post by Immortalist
going beyond what can be known by either claiming can prove or
disprove the
Post by Immortalist
theory of god.
I submit that the equivocation is still there in the argument for the
antithesis, though his own use of equivocation apparently slipped by
Kant, and others.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with
the
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent
crtical
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the
question
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
[This part of a paragraph in the essay seems an antinomy itself, or at least some
sort of contradiction based upon a misundersatanding of the consequences of
confusing contigency with necessity];

For a philosopher like St. Thomas Aquinas, it would have been unthinkable to
admit of Kant's position that any traditional metaphysical claim must result in
an antinomy, an "affirmation and negation of the same statement."[2] This is not
to say that St. Thomas thought human reason was unlimited, or that any question
whatsoever could be answered by reason alone.

[Then the author makes Aquinas say that Kant is right but not contradiction
arises necessarily, and further muddles necessity vs contingency {"leaves both
options as logical possibilities"}. Did Kant assert that contradiction must
(necessity) arise or that it could (contingency) arise?];

In fact, to use a popular example, Thomas was quite insistent upon the fact that
philosophical reasoning alone, unaided by divine revelation, could not prove
either that the world has always existed or that it had a beginning: "For the
world to be always . . . cannot be proved by demonstration"[3]; "By faith alone
do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not
always exist."[4] In other words, "[p]hilosophical reasoning leaves both options
as logical possibilities. Divine revelation . . . resolve [sic] the question;
philosophy does not."[5] This is a classic example to demonstrate that even
though Aquinas believed metaphysical knowledge to be possible, by this he didn't
imply that we can solve all metaphysical problems using reason alone.

[Below we observe another misunderstanding of contingency and the author is
trying to make some criterien which only allows us to go as far as Aquinas. In
the quote Kant may claim that contradiction is necessarily possible he would
probably agree that any number of other alowable theories could agree with each
other and not be contradictions and still be based upon concepts beyond the
boundries of reason and intuition. In the third paragraph it appears the author
has opened himself up to anti-foundationalist refutations based upon completely
justified knowledge.]

However, while Thomas admitted that not every question can be solved by reason
alone, Kant insisted that any application of the categories of the understanding
beyond the sensible world must necessarily lead to an antinomy. He says:

A completely [perplexing] situation arises when reason is applied to the
objective synthesis of appearances. For in this domain, however it may endeavour
to establish its principle of unconditioned unity, and though it indeed does so
with great though illusory appearance of success, it soon falls into such
contradictions that it is constrained, in this cosmological field, to desist from
any such pretensions.[6]

This extreme view, namely that as far as dogmatic metaphysics is concerned, one
thesis can be proved by reason, and its very antithesis can equally be so proved,
was quite a novel idea in the world of philosophy, but it is not surprising that
Kant endorsed it, given his revolutionary hypothesis in the theory of knowledge,
which had arisen from his reflection on Hume's skeptical challenge.

[Then the author galavants off into a false ideological world based upon the
mistaken assumption that he has refuted the possibility that because,
"philosophical reasoning leaves both options as logical possibilities," that this
necessarily eliminated the possibility of contradiction. But he hasn't shown that
he can determine either way, thus tripping upon the very thesis of the great
Kant.]

Before Hume and Kant, however, metaphysics was flowering in the ancient,
scholastic, and even the pre-Kantian modern traditions. ... In this paper, I
shall be concerned primarily with the metaphysical views of St. Thomas Aquinas,
for he represents the epitome of medieval Christian philosophy...

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm

What do you think Aquinas would have said if he knew Newton?
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
Havn't looked at this essy yet but Kant saved christianity already.
Even though
Post by Immortalist
he was probably an athiest his intention was to save it.
My point is that Kant, while he apparently intended to save both
Christianity and atheism, failed to save atheism.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth
antinomy,
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy
in
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have
found
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the
fallacy
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
of equivocation.
No equivication was commited because the two thesis are two
completely seperate
Post by Immortalist
and different kinds of theories or arguments that can be derived by
induction
Post by Immortalist
from the available information we have of the world.
His argument for the antithesis, by itself, contains the equivocation.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of
his
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
I don't know why you snipped this in particular. This is where the
(quoting Kant)
If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
He equivocates the casuse with its causality. He states that since the
causality cannot be outside the world, so also the cause cannot be
outside the world. But this is not true. If the cause and its
causality were identical, his argument would be sound, but they are
not identical. I can reach inside a box and cause things to happen
inside the box without myself being contained in the box.
If the cause is part of a series of cause/efect/cause/effect isn't the first
cause part of the series and therefore in the world? By reaching inside the box
you change from "ALL of me is not part of the space in the box" to "SOME of me is
part of the space in the box." Remember the note (a) about begin and its dual
usage;

++ The word 'begin' is taken in two senses; first as active, signifying
that as cause it begins (infit) a series of states which is its effect;
secondly as passive, signifying the causality which begins to operate
(fit) in the cause itself. I reason here from the former to the latter
meaning.

http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/16ant1-4.htm#416

The problem seems to be the series of causes and their association.

CAUSALITY [A228/B280] Like, e.g., the categories of substance and community, the
category of causality is a condition of understanding for the "a priori
synthetic" unity of the manifold of intuition. The causal maxim is an "a priori
law of nature" since, in the Second Analogy, Kant argues that a condition for the
possibility of making any temporal judgment (and thus of having any possible
experience) is that we represent every event as caused. Kant also believes that
causality is not derivable empirically.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=LOGdncryIPiu4NncRVn-rg%40comcast.com
Post by A.Christian
<snip>
Post by Immortalist
"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of
reasoning. It
Post by Immortalist
establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be
made
Post by Immortalist
explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern
logician W. V.
Post by Immortalist
Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.
Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily
from our
Post by Immortalist
attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought
the
Post by Immortalist
Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the
transcendent will
Post by Immortalist
always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that
there is no
Post by Immortalist
transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are
meaningless. They
Post by Immortalist
are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean,
however,
Post by Immortalist
that the transcendent defeats rational representation.
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as
'paradox' or
Post by Immortalist
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is
whether the
Post by Immortalist
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always
existed.
Post by Immortalist
The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
I am less interested in what Kant believed as in what he could prove.
The contradiction that appears to arise in the fourth antinomy is only
apparent. The argument for the antithesis is _not_ valid -- it rests
upon the equivalence of the cause with its causality, and these two
are not equivalent.
Causality in this case is the class of the series of causes and effects whereas
causes are attributes of that class. You have taken Kant wrong mainly by being
influenced by people who won't accept that foundationalism has been soundly
refuted;

http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm

1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose justification
does not depend on that of any further emperical beliefs.

2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a reason
why it is likely to be true.

3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive possession
of such a reason.

4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he believes
with justification the premises from which it follows that the belief is
likely to be true.

5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least one
empirical premise.

6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the
justification of at least one other empirical belief, contradicting 1.

7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely justified
sceptical beliefs.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary
being as the
Post by Immortalist
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first
member or
Post by Immortalist
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists
inside or
Post by Immortalist
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from
reason's
Post by Immortalist
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for
infinite
Post by Immortalist
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to
spatio-temporal
Post by Immortalist
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of
freedom and
Post by Immortalist
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims
that there
Post by Immortalist
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to
appearances. In
Post by Immortalist
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This
result is
Post by Immortalist
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason
cannot prove
Post by Immortalist
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and
room is left
Post by Immortalist
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some
other way.
Post by Immortalist
http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason
beyond its
Post by Immortalist
boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the
world, whether
Post by Immortalist
as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every
event is
Post by Immortalist
contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes,
for its
Post by Immortalist
complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time,
since it
Post by Immortalist
contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain
the
Post by Immortalist
unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in
the world as
Post by Immortalist
its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there
can be none.
Post by Immortalist
The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical
conditions
Post by Immortalist
is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be
subject to
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the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to
the
Post by Immortalist
original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The
supposition of an
Post by Immortalist
absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world,
also
Post by Immortalist
destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And
yet, to act
Post by Immortalist
as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
The assumption that to act as a cause it must be in time is unproven,
and, I think, false. Why cannot time itself be created? Kant presented
an antinomy that is really no such thing, for one of the steps in his
reasoning -- namely, that the causality, which must be in time, is
equivalent to the cause -- is faulty.
I suppose it is possible that something caused things outside of time and at a
time simualtainiously but this is contradictory to common sense and good logic.
Similarly inductive theories are like that. You seem to be trying to cloak or
portray some "inductive theory" as a "deductive fact."
Post by A.Christian
He equivocates cause with its
causality, and without this equivocation, the whole force of his
argument for the antithesis in the fourth antinomy disappears. Thus,
there is really no antinomy, at least using the arguments that Kant
presented.
Some Kantian scholars claim that its a jerk meat antinomy anyway, merely filling
in space to show that he just thought of one to correspond to his fourth
category. I don't believe that personally though.
Post by A.Christian
Confining ourselves only to Kant, it would appear that pure
speculative reason _can_ infer the existence of a necessary being, and
cannot derive the opposite without relying on fallacy.
QM and modern physics would say its possible what you say but also that its
possible that the effects or means by which this god did such could just happen
anyway without it.
Post by A.Christian
So my question remains. Kant didn't do it successfully. Has anyone
else ever presented a non-fallacious argument on the side of the
antithesis on the fourth antinomy?
If you could refute Kant you would be world famous and probably get one of those
international awards. Read these, this the shit bro;

Kant's Critique of Pure Reason: A Commentary for Students
by T.E. Wilkerson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1855065606/qid=1095656904/

This one's OK;

A Short Commentary on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
by A. C. Ewing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226227782/qid=1095656798/
Post by A.Christian
Because it would appear that if there really is no antinomy, then pure
speculative reason is _not_ out of its element when it reasons to a
necessary being, and also, that this line of reasoning is valid, and a
necessary being exists, outside the world, as its cause.
In the first commentary link I put the author seems to think Kant meant that too.
That he meant that the third and fourth antinomies really weren't antinomies
because of distinction of empiricism vs noumena.

But this theory is an inductive theory of yours that a necessay being either does
or does not exist outside of the world is not deductive or analytic. Hence Kant's
critique is really ONLY about the analytic of deductive and your enquiry is
outside its domain.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
I simply submit that the case for the antithesis, at least in the
fourth antinomy, is nonexistent, at least as expressed by Kant,
because as presented by him it rests on the fallacy of equivocation.
If an antinomy really exists, it must be possible to prove both sides
of it without any fallacy, which would then really point to the
inadequacy of pure reason to solve these dilemmae, and force us to
seek elsewhere for the motives of credibility.
The antinomy is based upon inductive theories not deductive facts;

Every day the sun has risen
The sun rose yesterday
The sun rose the day before that
The sun rose the day before that, etc.
Therefore, the sun will rise tommorow.

...why should we have the right to belive conclusions that we arrive at through
inductive logic? Nothing can be proved in an accurate and undenaible way through
induction, and therefore we have no reason for beliving that the sun will rise
tommorow.
Post by A.Christian
On the other hand, if no such argument sans fallacy can be presented
for the antithesis, and the argument for the thesis yet remains valid,
it is possible that the Western world has been far too quick in
dismissing Saint Thomas Aquinas, and the motives of credibility based
on the proven existence of a Creator yet remain.
Fuck the world then by all means because nothing is better than getting all the
way into Aquinas. Just screw the critics while enjoying. Remember, and this
applies to Kant also, while enjoying Aquinas it is better to imagine the
knowledge of the times and try and see it all from that or you might
anthropomorphize our modern world onto his ideas.
A.Christian
2004-09-21 21:58:07 UTC
Permalink
You have given me a _lot_ of food for thought in your reply. I thank
you for that. And I am going to take my time to digest. So I will
possibly be getting back to you on this, or it may be that your reply
has settled enough of my questions. But I wanted to reply and thank
you anyway, lest you think your efforts are unappreciated -- rest
assured that they are appreciated!
Keynes
2004-09-23 11:33:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:16:03 -0700, "Immortalist" <***@yahoo.c

Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.

The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.

Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
Neither can logic embrace the concept of a never beginning,
never ending universe. Logic can't account for this universe
by any means.
Dixit
2004-09-23 16:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.
The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.
Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
You seem to have a little misunderstanding of what 'logic' means.

Logic is just the principles of valid argument, and that includes
argument on any topic whatsoever, including the idea there might have
been an uncaused first cause living outside space-time.

For instance, you just argued, "Logic can't go outside the cause and
effect progression of space-time." If that were true, then you would not
have any sound reason (logic) to post your previous argument, "The
cosmos was born noplace and at no time." But you do have sound reason
for posting that statement, since the very idea of God®, the
hypothetical first cause, has an inherent fatal problem (special
pleading for that one thing), so there cannot be any such thing as a
first cause, therefore the cosmos must be eternal.
Post by Keynes
Neither can logic embrace the concept of a never beginning,
never ending universe.
? You just showed that the cosmos must be eternal. See above where you
say, "The cosmos was born noplace and at no time."
Post by Keynes
Logic can't account for this universe
by any means.
? The fact is that you (inadvertantly it seems, and with only a tiny bit
of equivocation on 'universe' and 'cosmos') just finished using the
principles of valid argument (logic) to account for it, to produce a
sound argument that the cosmos must be eternal, so there cannot be any
such thing as God®, the hypothetical first cause! We atheists thank you!
Virgil
2004-09-23 18:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.
The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.
Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
You seem to have a little misunderstanding of what 'logic' means.
Says one who flouts its principles at every opportunity.

Giving lip service to principle that you honour more in the breech than
in th'observance is Hypocrisy, Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple's maiden
name.
Dixit
2004-09-23 22:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.
The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.
Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
You seem to have a little misunderstanding of what 'logic' means.
Logic is just the principles of valid argument, and that includes
argument on any topic whatsoever
Says ...
Says everybody except you and Keynes, evidently.
Virgil
2004-09-24 00:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Says ...
S...
Proportional snipping!
Immortalist
2004-09-23 17:22:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.
String theory predicts an endless prograssion of multiple universes, like a loaf
of bread with each slice being a universe.

But you place yourself in contradiction by trying to make your assertion sound
deductive rather than inductive. The most you could say is that it is possible or
that it is likely in reference to beginning or infinity and all that.
Post by Keynes
The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.
Then you are saying that space-time concepts do not happen in space-time but you
provide no deductive alternative. Maybe inductively we could say "they might do
so?"
Post by Keynes
Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
Neither can logic embrace the concept of a never beginning,
never ending universe. Logic can't account for this universe
by any means.
Exactly that is what Kant talks about in is Antinomies. What you are saying has
been the consensus since the late 1700s.

http://www.google.com/search?q=kant+antinomies
Keynes
2004-09-23 18:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Keynes
Science asserts the birth of space-time, a beginning.
The big bang was the first event, and it had no cause,
because causation is only a feature of space-time and
is an absurdity outside of it.
String theory predicts an endless prograssion of multiple universes, like a loaf
of bread with each slice being a universe.
But you place yourself in contradiction by trying to make your assertion sound
deductive rather than inductive. The most you could say is that it is possible or
that it is likely in reference to beginning or infinity and all that.
There is no cause and effect outside of space-time.
Before time, when can anything happen?
Before space, where can it happen?
Post by Immortalist
Post by Keynes
The cosmos was born noplace and at no time.
Where and when just don't apply. They are space-time concepts.
Then you are saying that space-time concepts do not happen in space-time but you
provide no deductive alternative. Maybe inductively we could say "they might do
so?"
Post by Keynes
Logic can't go outside the cause and effect progression of space-time.
Neither can logic embrace the concept of a never beginning,
never ending universe. Logic can't account for this universe
by any means.
Exactly that is what Kant talks about in is Antinomies. What you are saying has
been the consensus since the late 1700s.
http://www.google.com/search?q=kant+antinomies
A.Christian
2004-09-24 18:54:55 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
(quoting Kant)
If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
He equivocates the casuse with its causality. He states that since the
causality cannot be outside the world, so also the cause cannot be
outside the world. But this is not true. If the cause and its
causality were identical, his argument would be sound, but they are
not identical. I can reach inside a box and cause things to happen
inside the box without myself being contained in the box.
If the cause is part of a series of cause/efect/cause/effect isn't the first
cause part of the series and therefore in the world?
Not necessarily.
Post by Immortalist
By reaching inside the box
you change from "ALL of me is not part of the space in the box" to "SOME of me is
part of the space in the box."
I need not reach inside the box at all, to have an effect entirely
within the box. I can use a magnet to lift a metal object in the box,
I can use a mechanical device to reach inside, I can ask someone else
to produce my effect for me. In all three examples, no part of me is
inside the box at any time.
Post by Immortalist
Remember the note (a) about begin and its dual
usage;
++ The word 'begin' is taken in two senses; first as active, signifying
that as cause it begins (infit) a series of states which is its effect;
secondly as passive, signifying the causality which begins to operate
(fit) in the cause itself. I reason here from the former to the latter
meaning.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/16ant1-4.htm#416
The problem seems to be the series of causes and their association.
CAUSALITY [A228/B280] Like, e.g., the categories of substance and community, the
category of causality is a condition of understanding for the "a priori
synthetic" unity of the manifold of intuition. The causal maxim is an "a priori
law of nature" since, in the Second Analogy, Kant argues that a condition for the
possibility of making any temporal judgment (and thus of having any possible
experience) is that we represent every event as caused. Kant also believes that
causality is not derivable empirically.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=LOGdncryIPiu4NncRVn-rg%40comcast.com
Post by A.Christian
<snip>
Post by Immortalist
"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of
reasoning. It
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be
made
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern
logician W. V.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.
Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily
from our
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought
the
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the
transcendent will
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that
there is no
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are
meaningless. They
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean,
however,
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
that the transcendent defeats rational representation.
I agree with that.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as
'paradox' or
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is
whether the
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always
existed.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Immortalist
The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
I am less interested in what Kant believed as in what he could prove.
The contradiction that appears to arise in the fourth antinomy is only
apparent. The argument for the antithesis is _not_ valid -- it rests
upon the equivalence of the cause with its causality, and these two
are not equivalent.
Causality in this case is the class of the series of causes and effects whereas
causes are attributes of that class. You have taken Kant wrong mainly by being
influenced by people who won't accept that foundationalism has been soundly
refuted;
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm
It is interesting to note that the link you provided is to a paper
that disputes Bonjour's "Basic Antifoudationalist Argument."
Howard-Snyder states, "Foundationalism may well be false, but not for
BonJour's reasons."
Post by Immortalist
1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose justification
does not depend on that of any further emperical beliefs.
2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a reason
why it is likely to be true.
3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive possession
of such a reason.
4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he believes
with justification the premises from which it follows that the belief is
likely to be true.
5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least one
empirical premise.
6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the
justification of at least one other empirical belief, contradicting 1.
7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely justified
sceptical beliefs.
I think it is useful to develop a working assumption that, in the
absence of any compelling reason to disbelieve it, we can accept as
true. Otherwise, all philosophy runs into a brick wall, so to speak,
in the form of these two related questions: Is there such a thing as
truth? And if there is such a thing, is it knowable by a human mind?

A good working assumption for me is realism, the thesis of which is
that there is a real world external to myself. This is a basic
empirical belief that does not appear to require justification from
any other empirical belief, but can serve as a foundation for all
others. If not, then I must be a solipsist, ergo, I must be God. And
if I were God, I would be able to do a lot of things that I observe
that I am unable to do. Note that this is an empirical derivation of
an answer to an objection, namely solipsism; it is not empirical
support of the original realism, which, I think, needs no support, in
the absence of any compelling reason to doubt it.

I found this

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-foundational/

"Foundationalist Theories of Epistemic Justification" by Richard
Fumerton.

"Foundationalism is a view about the structure of justification or
knowledge. The foundationalist's thesis in short is that all knowledge
and justified belief rest ultimately on a foundation of noninferential
knowledge or justified belief."

There is also this

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-coherence/

"Coherentist Theories of Justification" by Jonathan Kvanvig

"Coherentism is a view about the structure of justification or
knowledge. The coherentist's thesis is normally formulated in terms of
a denial of its contrary foundationalism. Coherentism thus claims,
minimally, that not all knowledge and justified belief rest ultimately
on a foundation of noninferential knowledge or justified belief.

"This negative construal of coherentism occurs because of the
prominence of the regress problem in the history of epistemology, and
the long-held assumption that only foundationalism provides an
adequate, non-skeptical solution to that problem."

The "regress problem" in epistemology is strikingly reminiscent of
Aquinas' "first cause" argument for the existence of God.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-coherence/

"The Regress Problem

"When we are justified in believing a claim, we often are so justified
because our belief is based on other beliefs. Yet, it is not an
adequate defense of a belief merely to cite some other belief that
supports it, for the supporting belief may have no epistemic
credentials at all — it may be a belief based on mere prejudice, for
example. In order for the supporting belief to do the work required of
it, it must itself pass epistemic muster, standardly understood to
mean that it must itself be justified. If so, however, the question of
what justifies this belief arises as well. If it is justified on the
basis of some yet further belief, that belief, too, will have to be
justified; and the question will arise as to what justifies it.

"Thus arises the regress problem in epistemology. Skeptics maintain
that the regress cannot be avoided and hence that justification is
impossible. Infinitists endorse the regress as well, but argue that
the regress is not vicious and hence does not show that justification
is impossible. Foundationalists and coherentists agree that the
regress can be avoided and that justification is possible. They
disagree about how to avoid the regress. According to foundationalism,
the regress is found by finding a stopping point for the regress in
terms of foundational beliefs that are justified but not wholly
justified by some relationship to further beliefs. Coherentists deny
the need and the possibility of finding such stopping points for the
regress."

He also presents the skeptical version of the regress argument, as
follows:

1. No belief is justified unless its chain of reasons
* is infinitely long,
* stops, or
* goes in a circle.
2. An infinitely long chain of reasons involves a vicious regress
of reasons that cannot justify any belief.
3. Any stopping point to terminate the chain of reasons is
arbitrary, leaving every subsequent link in the chain depending on a
beginning point that cannot justify its successor link, ultimately
leaving one with no justification at all.
4. Circular arguments cannot justify anything, leaving a chain of
reasons that goes in a circle incapable of justifying any belief.

Now, having familiarized myself with the basics of the
foundationalist/anti-foundationalist controversy, I am in a better
position to state my own views on the matter. You stated above that
foundationalism had been soundly refuted. But the link you provided,
ostensibly as support for that statement, is to a paper that argues
against BonJour's basic thesis.

Also, according to Fumerton, Bonjour himself "joined the ranks of
foundationalists" at some point after his antifoundationalist argument
was published. I will present my own view below, but first I want to
quote Fumerton once more:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-foundational/

"Laurence BonJour (1985) raised another highly influential objection
to all forms of classical foundationalism (an objection raised before
he joined the ranks of foundationalists). The objection presupposed a
strong form of what we might call access internalism. Put very
superficially the access internalist argues that a feature of a belief
or epistemic situation that makes a belief noninferentially justified
must be a feature to which we have actual or potential access.
Moreover, we must have access to the fact that the feature in question
is probabilistically related to the truth of what we believe. So
suppose some foundationalist offers an account of noninferential
justification according to which a belief is noninferentially
justified if it has some characteristic X. BonJour then argues that
the mere fact that the belief has X could not, even in principle,
justify the believer in holding the belief. The believer would also
need access to (justified belief that!) the belief in question has X
and that beliefs of this sort (X beliefs) are likely to be true. At
least one of these propositions could only be known through inference,
and thus the putative noninferential justification is destroyed.

"BonJour presented the objection on the way to developing a coherence
theory of empirical justification. But it ultimately became obvious
that the objection to foundationalism, if good, was too strong. Given
the structure of the argument it should become evident that the
coherence theory (and any other theory) would be equally vulnerable to
the argument. Just replace "X" with some complicated description of
beliefs cohering with each other. That might suggest to the classical
foundationalist that strong access internalism is a view to be
avoided."

For myself, as I have stated, I find it useful to develop a working
assumption that can be regarded as true in the absence of any
compelling evidence to the contrary. There are several possibilities.
It may be that, going back in the chain to try to find the foundation
of all belief, I arrive at an untestable assumption. It then becomes
my responsibility to evaluate this assumption on criteria other than
apodectic certainty of its truth. Is it a working explanation that
fits the facts insofar as they are known to me? Is it contradicted by
any other facts known to me? And does it result in a world view that
is acceptable to me? Obviously the third consideration relies to a
very real degree on my own personal preference, which, I submit, is
far from arbitrary, but is and ought to be a real consideration for
anyone. I think that, more often than not, philosophers, like any
other human beings, have their own agendas, and these, despite their
best efforts to arrive at pure objectivity, do color their rationales
to a real extent.

Very few of the things we know, in the final analysis, rest on
apodectic certainty of anything. But unless we are to be completely
paralyzed, we need to take some things for granted. Otherwise, we
start asking questions like, "how do you know you mom was the tooth
fairy? Aren't you just assuming that is so?" The philosopher seeks to
clarify his own thought processes so that the bare minimum is taken
for granted, but ultimately, I think, any philosophy that seeks to
universalize itself in application to the real world must rely on some
assumptions. The task is not to eliminate all assumption, but rather,
to differentiate between those assumptions that are logical and
workable, and those that are purely arbitrary or even prejudicial.

Thus, I am a foundationalist. I can state fairly simply at least some
of what I use as the foundation for all my beliefs:

1. I am. This much is apodectically certain, for the reason elucidated
by Descartes.

2. The world is real. This is a working assumption, but it is
supported by my own perception of myself as a limited being.

3. The old saying notwithstanding, things are quite often just what
they appear to be. I believe that for the most part, and in absence of
any compelling reason to the contrary, I can trust my senses.

4. To quote Shakespeare, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth
than are dreamt about in [my] philosophy." The world is vast beyond my
comprehension, and all that I know is but little compared to the
reality in which I find myself.

5. To quote St Paul: "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever modest,
whatsoever just, whatsoever holy, whatsoever lovely, whatsoever of
good fame, if there be any virtue, if any praise of discipline: think
on these things." and "prove all things: hold fast that which is
good."

That's it, I think, in a nutshell.
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http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary
being as the
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cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first
member or
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underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists
inside or
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outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from
reason's
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desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for
infinite
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extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to
spatio-temporal
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entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of
freedom and
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a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims
that there
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are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to
appearances. In
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this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This
result is
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crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason
cannot prove
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that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and
room is left
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for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some
other way.
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http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason
beyond its
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boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the
world, whether
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as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every
event is
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contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes,
for its
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complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time,
since it
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contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain
the
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unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in
the world as
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its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there
can be none.
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The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical
conditions
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is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be
subject to
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the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to
the
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original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The
supposition of an
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absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world,
also
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destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And
yet, to act
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as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
The assumption that to act as a cause it must be in time is unproven,
and, I think, false. Why cannot time itself be created? Kant presented
an antinomy that is really no such thing, for one of the steps in his
reasoning -- namely, that the causality, which must be in time, is
equivalent to the cause -- is faulty.
I suppose it is possible that something caused things outside of time and at a
time simualtainiously but this is contradictory to common sense and good logic.
Similarly inductive theories are like that. You seem to be trying to cloak or
portray some "inductive theory" as a "deductive fact."
Perhaps it will help if we leave aside the question of time, for the
time being, and bring in the concept of dependency in terms of
support. I know with reasonable certainty that water is able to exist
because its existence as water is supported by the existence of
hydrogen and oxygen atoms and their ability to combine. These atoms,
in turn are able to exist because their existence is supported by the
existence of protons and electrons (and neutrons) along with the ways
these particles interact. The existence of these particles and their
interactions is possible because, maybe, there are quarks. I don't
know how to take this series any farther than that, and I am
reasonably certain that after one or two more steps, the most learned
quantum physicist also does not know how to take it very much farther.
But the principle, that nothing exists unsupported, seems both
intuitively sound and also fits the facts to the extent that we know
them. This is, again, a working assumption. I don't know of any
non-inductive, non-empirical proof of the principle that nothing can
exist unsupported, but I feel quite safe in treating it as a working
assumption, on the grounds that its opposite, that something can exist
with no support whatsoever, seems absurd. And here again we have the
same old problem of the regress, which reason demands must come to an
end in something. If nothing can exist unsupported, then there must
be, ultimately, the Deist's "God." Ultimately, this "God"'s existence
is paradoxical, since if nothing can exist unsupported, the obvious
question comes, "then who supports God?" But this paradox, while real,
is not without solution. The solution itself is paradoxical. God
contains both being and non-being within Himself. That's from the
Bhagavad Gita, I didn't make it up. In terms that I have discussed
elsewhere in this thread, God is both one and zero. He is the One, and
He is also the Origin. I don't know how to express it without the
paradox, and my suspicion is that it is not possible to do so. But
this particular feature of reality, if true, ought not to be
surprising. If God is Infinite Being, then it should not surprise us
one bit to find that we cannot rationally grasp the nature of that
Being.

Thus, I think Kant was correct in his belief that human reason is
limited in its scope. I think in the "fourth antinomy," he proved, not
so much that reason cannot derive the existence of a necessary being,
but that 1) it can, and 2) it cannot, then, find such a being
anywhere. This is consistent with the Scripture also, wherein it is
stated that God "dwells in inaccessible light."
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He equivocates cause with its
causality, and without this equivocation, the whole force of his
argument for the antithesis in the fourth antinomy disappears. Thus,
there is really no antinomy, at least using the arguments that Kant
presented.
Some Kantian scholars claim that its a jerk meat antinomy anyway, merely filling
in space to show that he just thought of one to correspond to his fourth
category. I don't believe that personally though.
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Confining ourselves only to Kant, it would appear that pure
speculative reason _can_ infer the existence of a necessary being, and
cannot derive the opposite without relying on fallacy.
QM and modern physics would say its possible what you say but also that its
possible that the effects or means by which this god did such could just happen
anyway without it.
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So my question remains. Kant didn't do it successfully. Has anyone
else ever presented a non-fallacious argument on the side of the
antithesis on the fourth antinomy?
If you could refute Kant you would be world famous and probably get one of those
international awards. Read these, this the shit bro;
Kant's Critique of Pure Reason: A Commentary for Students
by T.E. Wilkerson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1855065606/qid=1095656904/
This one's OK;
A Short Commentary on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
by A. C. Ewing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226227782/qid=1095656798/
Thanks for these references. I am not yet done reading the "Critique"
itself.
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Because it would appear that if there really is no antinomy, then pure
speculative reason is _not_ out of its element when it reasons to a
necessary being, and also, that this line of reasoning is valid, and a
necessary being exists, outside the world, as its cause.
In the first commentary link I put the author seems to think Kant meant that too.
That he meant that the third and fourth antinomies really weren't antinomies
because of distinction of empiricism vs noumena.
But this theory is an inductive theory of yours that a necessay being either does
or does not exist outside of the world is not deductive or analytic. Hence Kant's
critique is really ONLY about the analytic of deductive and your enquiry is
outside its domain.
I grant that.
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http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
I simply submit that the case for the antithesis, at least in the
fourth antinomy, is nonexistent, at least as expressed by Kant,
because as presented by him it rests on the fallacy of equivocation.
If an antinomy really exists, it must be possible to prove both sides
of it without any fallacy, which would then really point to the
inadequacy of pure reason to solve these dilemmae, and force us to
seek elsewhere for the motives of credibility.
The antinomy is based upon inductive theories not deductive facts;
Every day the sun has risen
The sun rose yesterday
The sun rose the day before that
The sun rose the day before that, etc.
Therefore, the sun will rise tommorow.
...why should we have the right to belive conclusions that we arrive at through
inductive logic? Nothing can be proved in an accurate and undenaible way through
induction, and therefore we have no reason for beliving that the sun will rise
tommorow.
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On the other hand, if no such argument sans fallacy can be presented
for the antithesis, and the argument for the thesis yet remains valid,
it is possible that the Western world has been far too quick in
dismissing Saint Thomas Aquinas, and the motives of credibility based
on the proven existence of a Creator yet remain.
Fuck the world then by all means because nothing is better than getting all the
way into Aquinas. Just screw the critics while enjoying. Remember, and this
applies to Kant also, while enjoying Aquinas it is better to imagine the
knowledge of the times and try and see it all from that or you might
anthropomorphize our modern world onto his ideas.
Thanks, for all your input. I personally have no quarrel with Aquinas.
But you have opened up more to me in regard to more contemporary
philosophical thought. I'm giving myself a crash couse, and the things
you have pointed me to are helping me in that regard.

Peace!
Immortalist
2004-09-25 05:24:08 UTC
Permalink
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<snip>
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(quoting Kant)
If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
He equivocates the casuse with its causality. He states that since the
causality cannot be outside the world, so also the cause cannot be
outside the world. But this is not true. If the cause and its
causality were identical, his argument would be sound, but they are
not identical. I can reach inside a box and cause things to happen
inside the box without myself being contained in the box.
If the cause is part of a series of cause/efect/cause/effect isn't the first
cause part of the series and therefore in the world?
Not necessarily.
Then there is some sort of interaction that is not an interaction? The
interaction is out of this world. I see all the stuff you have pasted below which
is good especially the coherence theory stuff. I promote coherence theories and
Bonjour's 7 propositions are from a book "The Structure of Empirical Knowledge"
in which he defends and elaborates on the basics of coherence theories.

The Structure of Empirical Knowledge
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674843819/qid=1096087571/

I like the guy who invented coherence theory, Harold Henry Joachim, a buddy who
helped Norman Kemp Smith translate Kant's critique of pure reason. Strange huh.

THE NATURE OF TRUTH

Author: Harold Henry Joachim (1868-1938)
Type of work: Epistemology
First published: 1906

PRINCIPAL IDEAS ADVANCED

An idea is true if it fits in with other ideas to form a coherent whole.

To conceive something clearly and logically involves more than recognizing
logical relationships; it involves achieving a coherency in one's judgments that
goes beyond abstraction to material considerations.

Error is the distortion that results from a partial view of things; truth is the
ideal of achieving a structure of judgments that fits the totality of all
experience.

----------------------------

Joachim's short treatise, The Nature of Truth, has come to be regarded as the
classical statement of the coherence theory of truth. The book is modest in size
(180 pages), sticks closely to the point, and is written in that lucid style
which often graces the writings of British philosophers. It is a work that
philosophers can read with ease and profit.

Joachim divides the work into four chapters as follows: (1) Truth as
Correspondence, (2) Truth as a Quality of Independent Entities, (3) Truth as
Coherence (with a section on The Coherence-Notion of Truth, and a section on
Degrees of Truth), and (4) The Negative Element and Error. The first two chapters
are statements and criticisms of alternative views which prepare the way for the
positive statement of the coherence theory in Chapter III. In the last chapter
Joachim further supports the coherence theory by arguing that the problem of
error cannot be accounted for as satisfactorily within the alternative theories
as it can within the coherence theory.

Joachim begins by considering the view that correspondence means that for a mind
two "factors" (Joachim's word) correspond in their structures and purposes. This
is a very general and abstract conception of correspondence, and it applies to
such things as portraits and photographs as well as to descriptions in words. The
fundamental notion involved is that of copying. A portrait or a photograph or a
description is faithful if it conveys, as a whole, the same sense of purpose or
significance as does the original of which it is a copy, and if it is such a
faithful copy we say it is true. But, Joachim argues, the concern with a whole
having a purpose or significance indicates that the faithfulness of the copy is a
symptom rather than the fundamental characteristic of truth. It is the systematic
coherence of the whole that makes it a faithful copy (if it is), and therefore
the important element in the truthfulness of the copy is its coherence.

From this abstract version of the correspondence theory, Joachim moves on to
consider the correspondence that supposedly holds between a judgment and the
referent of the judgment-the fact to which it refers. Here he rests his case on
the claim that both the judgment and the referent of the judgment are finally
mental. Both the judgment and its referent are elements in "experience," and
experience for Joachim, as for all idealists, is finally mental. The
correspondence is a correspondence (or identity) of structure between two kinds
of experience. However, Joachim balks at abstracting a structure or form in such
a way as to neglect the matter or material which exhibits the structure. At stake
here is the doctrine of internal relations, to which we must shortly turn for a
more detailed discussion. The point can be made here, however, that Joachim
refuses to compare the form of the judgment with the form of the experienced
fact. Thus, both the judgment and the experienced fact which is the referent of
the judgment remain embedded in experience. Experience, furthermore, is a
totality containing the judgment and the experienced fact as elements. Both have
significance, for Joachim at any rate, within this wider context of experience,
and if they are abstracted from the concreteness of experience they lose their
significance. Experience finally, is the coherent whole which gives significance
to both the judgment and its referent. Again, coherence seems to be the key to
truth.

In his second chapter, "Truth as a Quality of Independent Entities," Joachim
states and rejects what he understands to be the position taken by G. E Moore and
the early Bertrand Russell the Russell of The Principles of Mathematics (1903).
Two assertions are the object of Joachim's concern here: (1) There are simple
facts which can be experienced or apprehended without being affected in any way
by this experiencing or apprehending. (2) There are logical entities, called
"propositions," which are the proper subjects of the predicates "true" and
"false." Joachim disagrees with both assertions. With regard to the first
assertionâ?" namely, that there are facts which are unaffected by men's
experiencing of themâ?"Joachim points out that there is certainly a difference
between a complex which is a fact, but which is not an experienced fact, and a
complex which is a fact, but which is also experienced. This line of reasoning,
of course, would not distress either Russell or Moore in the least. But Joachim
seems to believe that this difference implies that experiencing a fact somehow
changes the fact. However, to say this is to misrepresent Joachim (and other
idealists as well), for he does not admit that there are any such things as
unexperienced facts. To be a fact is to be experiencedâ?"in this regard Joachim
stands in the same position as did Berkeley.

Part of what is involved in Joachim's rejection of the view that experiencing
facts does not change them is the parallel case regarding judgments as opposed to
propositions. Just as there are no unexperienced facts for an idealist, so there
are no "propositions," where by "proposition" is meant the content of a judgment
considered as apart from the assertion of it by some person. These propositions
are the "independent entities" which the chapter heading refers to. Russell,
Joachim claims, regards truth and falsity as predicates of independent logical
entities called propositions. If there are propositions which can be considered
in abstraction from their being asserted by some person, and if there are facts
which can be apprehended without that apprehension changing them, then there are
two "factors" which can be examined in order to see whether or not they
correspond. For a coherence view to stand, then, it is important to reject this
possibility decisively. Joachim tries to do this by arguing that it makes no more
sense to talk about facts which are not experienced than to talk about
propositions which are not asserted by someone. Here it becomes obvious that the
earlier inclusion in the statement of the correspondence view of the words "for a
mind" is crucial for Joachim. Facts are all experienced facts, and propositions
are all asserted propositions (that is, judgments). But the premise Joachim
offers-namely, that we always deal with experienced facts and asserted
propositionsâ?"does not support his conclusionâ?"namely, that we cannot speak of
facts and propositions in abstraction from some mind which experiences the facts
and asserts the propositions.

The inference just mentioned rests, for Joachim, on the doctrine of internal
relations. We should look at this doctrine before proceeding. It is not
elaborated by Joachim in The Nature of Truth, but he admits that he is assuming
it, and it provides the background and real motivation for the rejection of
Russell's position.

Essentially the doctrine of internal relations is a denial, a denial that
relations are real entities having any status or meaning apart from the
situations in which they are exemplified. There is a certain plausibility in this
view. It seems, prima facie, that we come to speak of relations as a result of
interpreting our experience. We may, for example, come into a room and have a
complex, but unitary, experience which includes seeing a dog under the table,
smelling the fragrance of a vase of flowers, hearing the radio playing a popular
song, and so forth. Our unreflective apprehension of the room may be such that
these elements are not distinguished, but rather are experienced as an
undifferentiated totality. However, in interpreting our experience, we analyze
and describe and classify the unity into a multiplicity of things having
qualities and standing in relations. Joachim takes the usual idealist view that
in moving from the unitary experience of such a totality to the reflective
interpretation of it we abstract from the real. Therefore, although it is true
that we must talk of relations (and qualities and terms as well, because they are
similar to relations in this respect) in describing our experience, these
relations are abstractions, and hence they are unrealâ?" partially unreal at
best, perhaps totally unreal. Certainly they do not have status as independent
entities. When we say that "the dog is under the table," we are abstracting from
the unity of our experience, and if we go further and think about the relation of
"being under" by itself and apart from its exemplifications, we have performed
still another act of abstraction. But these abstractions have taken us out of the
immediacy and concreteness and unity of the experience itself, and they have
given us instead something formal and unreal.

Nevertheless, idealists such as Joachim make a concession to the fact that we do
use relations in describing our experience. Our knowledge structure, according to
idealists, is constructed out of immediate experience by means of judgments,
judgments which do assert relations. Thus, in spite of our recognition of the
undif-ferentiated totality as something without relations (so says the idealist),
our knowledge construction out of this experience does contain judgments which
assert relations. To this extent, relations do have a status and function. Still,
relations, if they are regarded as something independent of their concrete
manifestations in experience, are abstractions out of experience and are thus not
genuinely real. The proof of this is that there is no way of compounding the
concreteness of our experience out of the judgments asserting relations (or
qualities). We cannot synthesize our experience out of the descriptions or
judgments we make; to do so would give us a mere aggregate of formal
characteristics and not concrete experience. We simply cannot achieve the
individuality and uniqueness of experience by compounding judgments.
Nevertheless, we are forced to use relations, so our best course is to recognize
that we have abstracted and are therefore speaking of the only partially real.

Thus, the doctrine of internal relations really consists of two assertions: (1)
Relations are not independently real, and they have no significance apart from
the situations in which we judge them to be present. (2) Relations are arrived at
by abstracting from concrete experience and thus, although necessary in judgment,
they have only a partial and derivative reality. It is this doctrine that lies
behind Joachim's rejection of the Moore and Russell position. The doctrine of
internal relations rests on the conviction that abstraction from the immediacy of
experience is falsification, but certainly the independent facts and propositions
of Russell are abstractions from experience; therefore, such independent facts
and propositions must be rejected by Joachim.

In his third chapter Joachim takes up the positive exposition of the coherence
theory. The doctrine of internal relations also provides a fine background for
this theory, for, as we shall see, the coherence theory is really one way of
expressing the doctrine of internal relations and its implications.

Joachim offers as an abbreviated formulation of the coherence theory the
following: "Anything is true which can be conceived." He continues by explaining
what he means by the term "conceive." He points out that he does not mean "image"
or "imagine." What he does mean by "conceive" is "think out clearly and
logically." But here it is important to bear in mind the distrust of abstraction
which we saw manifested in the doctrine of internal relations. For most
contemporary philosophers, "to think out clearly and logically" suggests drawing
the implications of a set of statements. To do so would be possible also in the
case of false statements or fictional statements, and there is even a sense in
which a set of truth functions or prepositional functions could be elaborated
deductively. We would say that we are thinking out clearly and logically the
implications of "All men are mortal" and "X is a man" if we draw the conclusion
that "X is mortal," yet it might be false that all men are mortal, and it
certainly is neither true nor false that X is a man. We seem to have something
less than truth in this case. But for Joachim we are not able to think something
out clearly and logically if we abstract in such a manner from the fullness and
concreteness of immediate experience. Thus, the coherence theory reveals again
the usual idealist rejection of any kind of formalism. It is this rejection
which scuttles the misunderstanding of the coherence theory which takes it to
be the view that whatever is logically consistent is true. It is not uncommon to
hear that the coherence theory is refuted by the fact of alternative geometries,
each logically consistent, but incompatible with the others. If Euclidean
geometry is true (so this argument goes), then non-Euclidean geometries are
false, since they are inconsistent with Euclidean geometry. Thus, we would have
something consistent but false, and the coherence theory is therefore false. But
this identification of "coherence" with "consistency" is rejected explicitly by
Joachim. He states that whatever is true will certainly be consistent, but he
denies that bare consistency is a sufficient condition for truth. Consistency is
a formal characteristic; coherence is a richer notion which includes material
considerations as well.

But let us turn to giving a positive account of coherence. It does seem to make
sense to say that the totality of our experience is some sort of system. For one
thing, our experience seems to be temporally organized; our memories refer to
past events, our expectations have a future reference. There also seem to be
repeatable elements in our experience; every twenty-four hours I go to sleep, eat
food, and drink water. At regular intervals I go to work and return home again.
But within my experience, at any rate, certain other possibilities are not
genuine. I cannot, for instance, play first base on a major league baseball team.
To say that yesterday I hit a home run for the Giants in their game with the
Braves simply does not fit in with the rest of my experience. Thus, by the time I
fill in all the elements of my experience, certain possibilities are ruled out,
while others are unmistakably included. As I proceed to interpret the totality of
my experience by making the judgments that comprise my knowledge structure, I
come closer and closer to reflecting the richness and fullness of this totality.
The goal I strive for is a complete recasting of my experience in a set of
judgments. The nearer I come to achieving this complete account of my experience
in a system of judgments, the nearer I approach truth.

This endeavor to reach truth as the reconstruction of the totality of my
experience leads naturally to some other features of the coherence theory. It is
quite consistent with saying that the more complete my structure of judgments,
the nearer I approach truth, to say also that truth is properly reserved as a
predicate for the total structure of judgments. Truth, for Joachim, is not a
predicate of particular propositions or judgments; it is rather a predicate of
the total system of judgments. Furthermore, absolute truth is an unrealizable
goal. The best I can ever come up with is partial and incomplete truth. Nor is
this all, for there is a sense in which I might say that a certain specific
judgment which I now make is partially true because it occupies a place in the
total structure of judgments which I have developed as of this date. But as the
days and years go by I will be adding to this structure of judgments, making it
more adequate and more complete. But if I retain the original judgment in the
wider and more adequate structure, it becomes more and more true. As the
knowledge structure expands and comes closer to completion, any given judgment in
it becomes more true. Joachim points out that a simple mathematical relation,
such as 3 squared equals 9, is truer for the skilled mathematician than it is for
the boy in grade school who has just committed it to memory. Truth, on this view,
admits of degrees.

What "think out clearly and logically" comes to, then, is this: We must see the
judgments as elements in a rational structure which is constantly being enlarged
and therefore is approaching ever closer to a complete account of the totality of
our experience. Truth is the ideal of the complete faithfulness of such a
structure of judgments to the totality of experience.

The last section of Joachim's book deals with the problem of error. He points out
that the correspondence theory is unable to handle the matter of error as
adequately as the coherence theory. Essentially, the coherence theory of error is
that error represents a partial truth which is superseded as the system of
judgments becomes more complete. I may make a judgment now that the moon is made
of green cheese and this may cohere with the limited set of judgments I now have.
However as I fill in the gaps in my structure of judgments, I recognize that the
judgment that the moon is made of green cheese does not cohere with the remainder
of my judgments. I therefore replace this judgment with one which fits in better
with the other judgments I have made. Error is thus a kind of stage we go through
on the way to fuller truth. Error is the distortion that results from a partial
view.

It has been fashionable in recent decades to smile indulgently at the foolishness
of idealism generally and the coherence theory of truth specifically. It seems
fair to say, however, that recent philosophizing about the relation between
meaning and use probably has raised questions that suggest a re-examination of
what the great idealists such as Joachim had to say about truth as coherence. For
certainly it can be said that before a statement's truth value can be determined,
its meaning must be understood. But if meaning is related to use, and use is
related to a context in which terms and statements occur, then some of the points
raised by the coherence theorists seem to have relevance again. If the coherence
theory can enlighten some contemporary philosophical disputes, then a classic
statement of it, such as Joachim's The Nature of Truth, deserves careful study
once again.

Masterpieces of World Philosophy in Summary Form
by Frank N. Magill (Editor), Fran Magill
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060037806/


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/
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By reaching inside the box
you change from "ALL of me is not part of the space in the box" to "SOME of me is
part of the space in the box."
I need not reach inside the box at all, to have an effect entirely
within the box. I can use a magnet to lift a metal object in the box,
I can use a mechanical device to reach inside, I can ask someone else
to produce my effect for me. In all three examples, no part of me is
inside the box at any time.
Then you need a chain of influences right? Your right about not having to be in
the box but you can't eliminate a communication or interaction with the world
though.
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Remember the note (a) about begin and its dual
usage;
++ The word 'begin' is taken in two senses; first as active, signifying
that as cause it begins (infit) a series of states which is its effect;
secondly as passive, signifying the causality which begins to operate
(fit) in the cause itself. I reason here from the former to the latter
meaning.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/16ant1-4.htm#416
The problem seems to be the series of causes and their association.
CAUSALITY [A228/B280] Like, e.g., the categories of substance and community, the
category of causality is a condition of understanding for the "a priori
synthetic" unity of the manifold of intuition. The causal maxim is an "a priori
law of nature" since, in the Second Analogy, Kant argues that a condition for the
possibility of making any temporal judgment (and thus of having any possible
experience) is that we represent every event as caused. Kant also believes that
causality is not derivable empirically.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=LOGdncryIPiu4NncRVn-rg%40comcast.com
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<snip>
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"An antinomy produces a self-contradiction by accepted ways of
reasoning. It
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establishes that some tacit and trusted pattern of reasoning must be
made
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explicit and henceforward be avoided or revised," writes a modern
logician W. V.
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Quine, in The Ways of Paradox (1966), p.7.
Antinomies are contradictions that Kant believed follow necessarily
from our
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attempts to conceive the nature of transcendent reality. Kant thought
the
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Antinomies cannot be resolved and that attempts to conceive the
transcendent will
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always produce irresolvable contradictions. This does not mean that
there is no
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transcendent or that attempts to conceive the transcendent are
meaningless. They
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are, just as Kant said, necessitated by reason itself. It does mean,
however,
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that the transcendent defeats rational representation.
I agree with that.
I think we agree on most everything but foundationalism.
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antinomies ('conflict of laws') which are usually described as
'paradox' or
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'contradiction'. An example of one Kant sought to deal with is
whether the
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universe has a beginning (first cause) or whether it has always
existed.
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The contradiction arises because valid arguments
can be made in favour of both views. If
unresolved this antimony could lead to 'the
euthanasia of pure reason' (skepticism).
Thus Kant believed antinomies must be reconciled.
I am less interested in what Kant believed as in what he could prove.
The contradiction that appears to arise in the fourth antinomy is only
apparent. The argument for the antithesis is _not_ valid -- it rests
upon the equivalence of the cause with its causality, and these two
are not equivalent.
Causality in this case is the class of the series of causes and effects whereas
causes are attributes of that class. You have taken Kant wrong mainly by being
influenced by people who won't accept that foundationalism has been soundly
refuted;
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm
It is interesting to note that the link you provided is to a paper
that disputes Bonjour's "Basic Antifoudationalist Argument."
Howard-Snyder states, "Foundationalism may well be false, but not for
BonJour's reasons."
Actually those seven propositions are repeated by many philosophers who have
their own versions. I doubt if Bonjour invented this particular
anti-foundationalism. Kant probably invented more of it than anyone.
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1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose justification
does not depend on that of any further emperical beliefs.
2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a reason
why it is likely to be true.
3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive possession
of such a reason.
4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he believes
with justification the premises from which it follows that the belief is
likely to be true.
5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least one
empirical premise.
6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the
justification of at least one other empirical belief, contradicting 1.
7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely justified
sceptical beliefs.
I think it is useful to develop a working assumption that, in the
absence of any compelling reason to disbelieve it, we can accept as
true. Otherwise, all philosophy runs into a brick wall, so to speak,
in the form of these two related questions: Is there such a thing as
truth? And if there is such a thing, is it knowable by a human mind?
A good working assumption for me is realism, the thesis of which is
that there is a real world external to myself.
So far so good, a good theory indeed.
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This is a basic
empirical belief that does not appear to require justification from
any other empirical belief, but can serve as a foundation for all
others.
Huh? You are defending a working assumption by an appearance? Your wide open to
the skeptic now.
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If not, then I must be a solipsist, ergo, I must be God. And
if I were God, I would be able to do a lot of things that I observe
that I am unable to do.
There are many unexplained things in life, so why must you be a god if something
like beliefs about the real world can't be justified? You might just be an
evolved mammal with particular kinds of inference systems naturally selected for
a particular environment. These inferences need not include the ability to prove
that the real world exists in order to survive in "a theoretical construct we
call the world."
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Note that this is an empirical derivation of
an answer to an objection, namely solipsism; it is not empirical
support of the original realism, which, I think, needs no support, in
the absence of any compelling reason to doubt it.
Assumptions and theories currently cannot be completely justified even if true.

Empirical science should (always) contain the assumption "if" at least covertly.
For instance "if the theory of gravity is true..."

CARLSON: Ms. Scott -- hold on. That's not -- in some ways, that's not really
the question. I mean, the question is: Shall we admit the truth that
evolution is a theory? It's the theory of evolution, not the law of
evolution. And what's wrong with admitting that?

SCOTT: Well, in science, a theory is an explanation. Of course evolution is
a theory, just like gravitation. But what we should be...

CARLSON: Wait, I thought gravity was a law. The law of gravity, right...

SCOTT: No, gravity...

CARLSON: ... or is this so far over my head I don't know what you're talking
about? I thought it was a law.

SCOTT: Well, I'll tell you what, if you drop something, it's going to fall.
That's an observation: unsupported things fall. But you explain that
observation with the theory of gravity, which is that the mass of what
whatever it is you dropped, a pencil or a pen or something, is attracted by
the mass...

CARLSON: Well you are blowing my mind...

SCOTT: That's not an observation.

CARLSON: ... law of gravity. Honestly, is it not the law, it's really a
theory of gravity?

SCOTT: It's a theory of gravity. But remember, a theory is an explanation.

SPRIGG: ... should point out, Scott, though, that theories of origins and
theories that are testable in terms of current experimentation are somewhat
different in a scientific perspective. We can't experimentally confirm
evolution.

SCOTT: Sure we can...

CNN Crossfire:
Secret Court Stymies Justice Department; Creationists Square off with
Evolutionists; Should Bush Be Telling Americans to Exercise?
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/24/cf.00.html
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I found this
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-foundational/
"Foundationalist Theories of Epistemic Justification" by Richard
Fumerton.
"Foundationalism is a view about the structure of justification or
knowledge. The foundationalist's thesis in short is that all knowledge
and justified belief rest ultimately on a foundation of noninferential
knowledge or justified belief."
There is also this
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-coherence/
"Coherentist Theories of Justification" by Jonathan Kvanvig
"Coherentism is a view about the structure of justification or
knowledge. The coherentist's thesis is normally formulated in terms of
a denial of its contrary foundationalism. Coherentism thus claims,
minimally, that not all knowledge and justified belief rest ultimately
on a foundation of noninferential knowledge or justified belief.
"This negative construal of coherentism occurs because of the
prominence of the regress problem in the history of epistemology, and
the long-held assumption that only foundationalism provides an
adequate, non-skeptical solution to that problem."
The "regress problem" in epistemology is strikingly reminiscent of
Aquinas' "first cause" argument for the existence of God.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-coherence/
"The Regress Problem
"When we are justified in believing a claim, we often are so justified
because our belief is based on other beliefs. Yet, it is not an
adequate defense of a belief merely to cite some other belief that
supports it, for the supporting belief may have no epistemic
credentials at all - it may be a belief based on mere prejudice, for
example. In order for the supporting belief to do the work required of
it, it must itself pass epistemic muster, standardly understood to
mean that it must itself be justified. If so, however, the question of
what justifies this belief arises as well. If it is justified on the
basis of some yet further belief, that belief, too, will have to be
justified; and the question will arise as to what justifies it.
"Thus arises the regress problem in epistemology. Skeptics maintain
that the regress cannot be avoided and hence that justification is
impossible. Infinitists endorse the regress as well, but argue that
the regress is not vicious and hence does not show that justification
is impossible. Foundationalists and coherentists agree that the
regress can be avoided and that justification is possible. They
disagree about how to avoid the regress. According to foundationalism,
the regress is found by finding a stopping point for the regress in
terms of foundational beliefs that are justified but not wholly
justified by some relationship to further beliefs. Coherentists deny
the need and the possibility of finding such stopping points for the
regress."
He also presents the skeptical version of the regress argument, as
1. No belief is justified unless its chain of reasons
* is infinitely long,
* stops, or
* goes in a circle.
2. An infinitely long chain of reasons involves a vicious regress
of reasons that cannot justify any belief.
3. Any stopping point to terminate the chain of reasons is
arbitrary, leaving every subsequent link in the chain depending on a
beginning point that cannot justify its successor link, ultimately
leaving one with no justification at all.
4. Circular arguments cannot justify anything, leaving a chain of
reasons that goes in a circle incapable of justifying any belief.
Now, having familiarized myself with the basics of the
foundationalist/anti-foundationalist controversy, I am in a better
position to state my own views on the matter. You stated above that
foundationalism had been soundly refuted. But the link you provided,
ostensibly as support for that statement, is to a paper that argues
against BonJour's basic thesis.
Also, according to Fumerton, Bonjour himself "joined the ranks of
foundationalists" at some point after his antifoundationalist argument
was published. I will present my own view below, but first I want to
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-foundational/
"Laurence BonJour (1985) raised another highly influential objection
to all forms of classical foundationalism (an objection raised before
he joined the ranks of foundationalists). The objection presupposed a
strong form of what we might call access internalism. Put very
superficially the access internalist argues that a feature of a belief
or epistemic situation that makes a belief noninferentially justified
must be a feature to which we have actual or potential access.
Moreover, we must have access to the fact that the feature in question
is probabilistically related to the truth of what we believe. So
suppose some foundationalist offers an account of noninferential
justification according to which a belief is noninferentially
justified if it has some characteristic X. BonJour then argues that
the mere fact that the belief has X could not, even in principle,
justify the believer in holding the belief. The believer would also
need access to (justified belief that!) the belief in question has X
and that beliefs of this sort (X beliefs) are likely to be true. At
least one of these propositions could only be known through inference,
and thus the putative noninferential justification is destroyed.
"BonJour presented the objection on the way to developing a coherence
theory of empirical justification. But it ultimately became obvious
that the objection to foundationalism, if good, was too strong. Given
the structure of the argument it should become evident that the
coherence theory (and any other theory) would be equally vulnerable to
the argument. Just replace "X" with some complicated description of
beliefs cohering with each other. That might suggest to the classical
foundationalist that strong access internalism is a view to be
avoided."
For myself, as I have stated, I find it useful to develop a working
assumption that can be regarded as true in the absence of any
compelling evidence to the contrary. There are several possibilities.
It may be that, going back in the chain to try to find the foundation
of all belief, I arrive at an untestable assumption. It then becomes
my responsibility to evaluate this assumption on criteria other than
apodectic certainty of its truth. Is it a working explanation that
fits the facts insofar as they are known to me? Is it contradicted by
any other facts known to me? And does it result in a world view that
is acceptable to me? Obviously the third consideration relies to a
very real degree on my own personal preference, which, I submit, is
far from arbitrary, but is and ought to be a real consideration for
anyone. I think that, more often than not, philosophers, like any
other human beings, have their own agendas, and these, despite their
best efforts to arrive at pure objectivity, do color their rationales
to a real extent.
Very few of the things we know, in the final analysis, rest on
apodectic certainty of anything. But unless we are to be completely
paralyzed, we need to take some things for granted. Otherwise, we
start asking questions like, "how do you know you mom was the tooth
fairy? Aren't you just assuming that is so?" The philosopher seeks to
clarify his own thought processes so that the bare minimum is taken
for granted, but ultimately, I think, any philosophy that seeks to
universalize itself in application to the real world must rely on some
assumptions. The task is not to eliminate all assumption, but rather,
to differentiate between those assumptions that are logical and
workable, and those that are purely arbitrary or even prejudicial.
Thus, I am a foundationalist. I can state fairly simply at least some
1. I am. This much is apodectically certain, for the reason elucidated
by Descartes.
2. The world is real. This is a working assumption, but it is
supported by my own perception of myself as a limited being.
3. The old saying notwithstanding, things are quite often just what
they appear to be. I believe that for the most part, and in absence of
any compelling reason to the contrary, I can trust my senses.
4. To quote Shakespeare, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth
than are dreamt about in [my] philosophy." The world is vast beyond my
comprehension, and all that I know is but little compared to the
reality in which I find myself.
5. To quote St Paul: "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever modest,
whatsoever just, whatsoever holy, whatsoever lovely, whatsoever of
good fame, if there be any virtue, if any praise of discipline: think
on these things." and "prove all things: hold fast that which is
good."
That's it, I think, in a nutshell.
The Given

The epistemological sceptic notes that our faculties of knowledge, in short
reason and the senses, are fallible. Fallacious reasoning occurs, just as sensory
illusions and hallucinations occur. On account of this fallibility of our
faculties of knowledge, the sceptic is disposed to conclude that through reliance
on them nothing can be known with certainty. There are many ways in which
attempts have been made to answer the epistemological sceptic. Sometimes, the
sceptic's claims have been said to be incoherent in the sense that to be true, or
even to make sense at all, they require assumptions which make them false.
Alternatively, the claims have been said to be unintelligible in the sense that
facts about the nature of language and its use preclude them. Also, the sceptic's
arguments themselves have been challenged on the score of invalidity - it is
denied that they succeed in showing what they purport to show. More and more
today, it has been maintained that the sceptic is misdirected about the nature of
existence and of knowledge.

There is one other way, different from all of these, in which the sceptic's
position has been opposed. This involves a direct challenge to the sceptic's
contention that nothing can be known with certainty. Here, an attempt is made to
show that there is something whose existence cannot be denied and which is such
that we can and do know it with certainty. It is commonly referred to as 'the
given'. It is what is immediately presented to consciousness. Even in erroneous
perception, we are told, something is still perceived. Neither illusion nor
hallucination is characterized by perceptual vacuity - there always is something
given. Berkeley spoke of 'the proper object of the senses', and A. J. Ayer and
others of 'sense-data'. When one supposedly sees a penny, according to these
philosophers, one sees not the penny itself but an elliptical sense-datum.

This view of sense-data as the incorrigibly given in perception is connected with
foundationalism. Beginning from sense-data, foundationalism seeks to show how,
from such elements, we construct objects like the penny. The methods of
construction are intended to transfer to our knowledge-claims concerning
three-dimensional objects something of the certainty of knowledge associated with
sense-data. Rudolf Carnap made strides towards bringing about such a
construction, but W. V. Quine's systematic criticisms of the programme and its
devices have made it evident to many that it will not be completed. And the
assumption of sense-data known incorrigibly has not been without its critics
(e.g. the later Wittgenstein and J. L. Austin).

http://xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=552176
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http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Philosophy/kant.htm
In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary
being as the
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cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first
member or
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underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists
inside or
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outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from
reason's
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desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for
infinite
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extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to
spatio-temporal
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entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of
freedom and
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a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims
that there
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are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to
appearances. In
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this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This
result is
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crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason
cannot prove
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that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and
room is left
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for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some
other way.
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http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8
--------------------------
REM: Remember what you are looking for is an extension of reason
beyond its
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boundries and a resulting or contrary assumption;
Thesis. Some form of absolutely necessary existence belongs to the
world, whether
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as its part or as its cause.
Proof. Phenomenal existence is serial, mutable, consistent. Every
event is
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contingent upon a preceding condition. The conditioned presupposes,
for its
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complete explanation, the unconditioned. The whole of past time,
since it
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contains the whole of all past conditions, must of necessity contain
the
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unconditioned or also 'absolutely necessary.'
-------------CONTRARIES----------------------
Antithesis. There is no absolutely necessary existence, whether in
the world as
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its part, or outside of it as its cause.
Proof. Of unconditionally necessary existence within the world there
can be none.
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The assumption of a first unconditioned link in the chain of cosmical
conditions
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is self-contradictory. For such link or cause, being in time, must be
subject to
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the law of all temporal existence, and so be determined - contrary to
the
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original assumption - by another link or cause before it. The
supposition of an
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absolutely necessary cause of the world, existing without the world,
also
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destroys itself. For, being outside the world, it is not in time. And
yet, to act
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as a cause, it must be in time. This supposition is therefore absurd.
The assumption that to act as a cause it must be in time is unproven,
and, I think, false. Why cannot time itself be created? Kant presented
an antinomy that is really no such thing, for one of the steps in his
reasoning -- namely, that the causality, which must be in time, is
equivalent to the cause -- is faulty.
I suppose it is possible that something caused things outside of time and at a
time simualtainiously but this is contradictory to common sense and good logic.
Similarly inductive theories are like that. You seem to be trying to cloak or
portray some "inductive theory" as a "deductive fact."
Perhaps it will help if we leave aside the question of time, for the
time being, and bring in the concept of dependency in terms of
support. I know with reasonable certainty that water is able to exist
because its existence as water is supported by the existence of
hydrogen and oxygen atoms and their ability to combine. These atoms,
in turn are able to exist because their existence is supported by the
existence of protons and electrons (and neutrons) along with the ways
these particles interact. The existence of these particles and their
interactions is possible because, maybe, there are quarks. I don't
know how to take this series any farther than that, and I am
reasonably certain that after one or two more steps, the most learned
quantum physicist also does not know how to take it very much farther.
But the principle, that nothing exists unsupported, seems both
intuitively sound and also fits the facts to the extent that we know
them. This is, again, a working assumption. I don't know of any
non-inductive, non-empirical proof of the principle that nothing can
exist unsupported, but I feel quite safe in treating it as a working
assumption, on the grounds that its opposite, that something can exist
with no support whatsoever, seems absurd. And here again we have the
same old problem of the regress, which reason demands must come to an
end in something. If nothing can exist unsupported, then there must
be, ultimately, the Deist's "God." Ultimately, this "God"'s existence
is paradoxical, since if nothing can exist unsupported, the obvious
question comes, "then who supports God?" But this paradox, while real,
is not without solution. The solution itself is paradoxical. God
contains both being and non-being within Himself. That's from the
Bhagavad Gita, I didn't make it up. In terms that I have discussed
elsewhere in this thread, God is both one and zero. He is the One, and
He is also the Origin. I don't know how to express it without the
paradox, and my suspicion is that it is not possible to do so. But
this particular feature of reality, if true, ought not to be
surprising. If God is Infinite Being, then it should not surprise us
one bit to find that we cannot rationally grasp the nature of that
Being.
Thus, I think Kant was correct in his belief that human reason is
limited in its scope. I think in the "fourth antinomy," he proved, not
so much that reason cannot derive the existence of a necessary being,
but that 1) it can, and 2) it cannot, then, find such a being
anywhere. This is consistent with the Scripture also, wherein it is
stated that God "dwells in inaccessible light."
But if;

In the fourth antinomy, the thesis is that there must be a necessary being as the
cause of the whole sequence of contingent beings, either as its first member or
underlying it, while the antithesis is that no such being exists inside or
outside the world (A 452-3/B 480-1). Again, the theses result from reason's
desire for closure and the antitheses result from reason's desire for infinite
extension. But now the theses do not necessarily refer solely to spatio-temporal
entities, so the claims that there must be a non-natural causality of freedom and
a necessary being can apply to things in themselves while the claims that there
are only contingent existents linked by laws of nature apply to appearances. In
this case both thesis and antithesis may be true (A 531/B 559 ). This result is
crucial to Kant, because it means that although theoretical reason cannot prove
that either freedom or God exist, neither can it disprove them, and room is left
for the existence of freedom and God to gain credibility in some other way.

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/DB047SECT8

Then your claim is contradicted if you decide either way by the possibility of
it's opposite not being eliminated by foundational or analytic justification.
Remember Kant says analytic is something in a predicate that is by definition
true in the subject but that synthetic is something in the predicate that
necessarily goes outside the subject and is not contained in the subject by
definition. This is currently know as the deduction/induction distinction mostly.
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He equivocates cause with its
causality, and without this equivocation, the whole force of his
argument for the antithesis in the fourth antinomy disappears. Thus,
there is really no antinomy, at least using the arguments that Kant
presented.
Some Kantian scholars claim that its a jerk meat antinomy anyway, merely filling
in space to show that he just thought of one to correspond to his fourth
category. I don't believe that personally though.
Post by A.Christian
Confining ourselves only to Kant, it would appear that pure
speculative reason _can_ infer the existence of a necessary being, and
cannot derive the opposite without relying on fallacy.
QM and modern physics would say its possible what you say but also that its
possible that the effects or means by which this god did such could just happen
anyway without it.
Post by A.Christian
So my question remains. Kant didn't do it successfully. Has anyone
else ever presented a non-fallacious argument on the side of the
antithesis on the fourth antinomy?
If you could refute Kant you would be world famous and probably get one of those
international awards. Read these, this the shit bro;
Kant's Critique of Pure Reason: A Commentary for Students
by T.E. Wilkerson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1855065606/qid=1095656904/
This one's OK;
A Short Commentary on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
by A. C. Ewing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226227782/qid=1095656798/
Thanks for these references. I am not yet done reading the "Critique"
itself.
INTERESTING: In Defense of Pure Reason : A Rationalist Account of A Priori
Justification (Cambridge Studies in Philosophy) by [Laurence_BonJour], Ernest
Sosa (Editor), Jonathan Dancy (Editor), John Haldane (Editor), Gilbert Harman
(Editor), Frank Jackson (Editor), William G. Lucan (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521597455/qid=1096089702/


Here are some lecture notes on the Critique but you better copy them quick
becuase who knows how long things stay on the internet.

http://www-philosophy.ucdavis.edu/mattey/phi175/lecmenu.html

1- Introduction to Kant

The Problem of Presentation
History of Metaphysics
Phenomena and Noumena

2- The Leibniz-Wolff Philosophy

Dogmatism
The Principle of Contradiction
The Principle of Sufficient Reason
Comparison of Concepts
The Identity of Indiscernibles
Positive Realities
Monads
Space and Time
Transcendental Reflection
The Copernican Revolution

3- Analytic and Synthetic Judgments

Presentations
Experience
A priori Judgments
Kant and Hume
Mathematics and Metaphysics
Analytic and Synthetic Judgments
Hume Revisited
The Plan of the Critique

4- Space

Sensibility
The Concept of Space
The Ontology of Space
Space as A Priori Presentation
Space as Intuition
Space and Geometry
The Ideality of Space

5- Time

The Concept of Time
The Ideality of Time

6- Transcendental Idealism

The Negative Doctrine
Things in Themselves
Dogmatism?
Lambert's Objection
Allison's Defense

7- Metaphysical Deduction

General Logic
Transcendental Logic
Analytic and Dialectic
Analytic of Concepts
Functions of the Understanding
Judgments
Table of Judgments
Synthesis
Table of Categories

8- Transcendental Deduction

Deduction
The Possibility of Experience
An Example
Synthetic Unity
Apperception
Pure Synthesis
The Unity of Judgment
The "Manifold" Argument
Transcendental Synthesis
Self-Affection
The "Synthesis" Argument
Nature

9- Substance

Power of Judgment
Schematism
Synthetic Judgments
Synthetic Principles
Analogies of Experience
Substance and Accident

10- Causality

Hume's Problem
The Category of Causality
The Causal Principle
Proof of the Principle
Objective Succession
Objective Reference
Substance and Action
Continuity
The Third Analogy

11- Possibility, Existence, Necessity

Modality in Leibniz
Modality in Wolff
Modality in Kant
Possibility
Existence
Necessity
Derivative Principles
The Realm of Possibility
Postulates
General Comment

12- Existence of the External World

Idealism
Berkeleyan Idealism
Empirical Idealism
Transcendental Idealism
The Refutation of Idealism

13- Phenomena and Noumena

The Limits of Understanding
Transcendental Use
Noumena
An Intelligible World

14- Rational Psychology

Transcendental Illusion
Reason
Ideas
Transcendental Ideas
Dialectical Inferences
Paralogism
I as Thinking
The Inferences
Immortality
Separate Existence
Practical Reason

15- The Magnitude of the World

Antinomy
Conditions
The World-Concepts
Boundaries
Limitlessness
Indefiniteness
The Second Antinomy

16- Freedom vs. Determinism

Freedom
Determinism
Reconciliation
Intelligible Causes
The Causality of Reason
The Fourth Antinomy

17- Existence of God

Ideal
God
Proofs of God's Existence
The Ontological Proof
The Cosmological Proof
The Physicotheological Proof
Theology

18- Practical Reason

The Doctrine of Method
Reason's Purpose
The Moral Law
The HIghest Good
Faith

http://www-philosophy.ucdavis.edu/mattey/phi175/lecmenu.html
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Because it would appear that if there really is no antinomy, then pure
speculative reason is _not_ out of its element when it reasons to a
necessary being, and also, that this line of reasoning is valid, and a
necessary being exists, outside the world, as its cause.
In the first commentary link I put the author seems to think Kant meant that too.
That he meant that the third and fourth antinomies really weren't antinomies
because of distinction of empiricism vs noumena.
But this theory is an inductive theory of yours that a necessay being either does
or does not exist outside of the world is not deductive or analytic. Hence Kant's
critique is really ONLY about the analytic of deductive and your enquiry is
outside its domain.
I grant that.
Well the title of the book kind of settle many debates about it; "pure reason"
not inductive reason.
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http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/kant.htm
He derives a second indirect argument for the same
teaching by the important distinction he draws be-
tween the mathematical (first and second) and the
dynamical (third and fourth) antinomies (p. 557). The
former concern conditions homogeneous with the con-
ditioned, i.e., spatiotemporal conditions which would
be finite (if the theses were true) or infinite (if the
antitheses were true). The dynamical antinomies con-
cern conditions heterogeneous with the conditioned,
i.e., something supersensible (free causes or necessary
beings) as the condition for what is perceived-
asserting them (in the theses) or denying them (in the
antitheses). The first two theses and antitheses are all
false, but the theses and antitheses of the dynamical
antinomies may all be true (p. 560). The theses may
be true of the supersensible world of noumena (though
we do not know that they are true), while the antitheses
are known to be true of the phenomenal world (from
argument in the Analytic of the Critique). He claims
to have shown that there is no reason in logic against
Theses 3 and 4, and if there is good reason to believe
them to be true, no theoretical argument can forbid
their being affirmed ("primacy of practical reason").
This resolution of the third and fourth conflicts thus
leads to Kant's "denying [theoretical, metaphysical]
knowledge in order to make room for [moral or
rational] faith" (p. xxx) which requires acceptance,
without apodictic proof, of the theses. Kant accord-
ingly refers to the antinomy as "the most fortunate
perplexity into which human reason could ever fall,"
for without it the case for the antitheses, which pro-
duce a metaphysical dogmatism "always at war with
morality," would be too strong.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-15
I simply submit that the case for the antithesis, at least in the
fourth antinomy, is nonexistent, at least as expressed by Kant,
because as presented by him it rests on the fallacy of equivocation.
If an antinomy really exists, it must be possible to prove both sides
of it without any fallacy, which would then really point to the
inadequacy of pure reason to solve these dilemmae, and force us to
seek elsewhere for the motives of credibility.
The antinomy is based upon inductive theories not deductive facts;
Every day the sun has risen
The sun rose yesterday
The sun rose the day before that
The sun rose the day before that, etc.
Therefore, the sun will rise tommorow.
...why should we have the right to belive conclusions that we arrive at through
inductive logic? Nothing can be proved in an accurate and undenaible way through
induction, and therefore we have no reason for beliving that the sun will rise
tommorow.
Post by A.Christian
On the other hand, if no such argument sans fallacy can be presented
for the antithesis, and the argument for the thesis yet remains valid,
it is possible that the Western world has been far too quick in
dismissing Saint Thomas Aquinas, and the motives of credibility based
on the proven existence of a Creator yet remain.
Fuck the world then by all means because nothing is better than getting all the
way into Aquinas. Just screw the critics while enjoying. Remember, and this
applies to Kant also, while enjoying Aquinas it is better to imagine the
knowledge of the times and try and see it all from that or you might
anthropomorphize our modern world onto his ideas.
Thanks, for all your input. I personally have no quarrel with Aquinas.
But you have opened up more to me in regard to more contemporary
philosophical thought. I'm giving myself a crash couse, and the things
you have pointed me to are helping me in that regard.
If you have any questions your pretty safe asking them in
news:alt.philosophy.kant but be carefull,

http://groups.google.com/groups?group=alt.philosophy.kant
Post by Immortalist
Peace!
gaffo
2004-09-19 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Kant is a fraud.


Descarte was right in Meditations.

Descarte became a fraud later...........

Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.

Nothing else can be proven.
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Immortalist
2004-09-19 03:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Kant is a fraud.
No one has refuted Kant's epistemology yet. How is he a fraud?
Post by gaffo
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
Post by gaffo
Nothing else can be proven.
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm

1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose justification
does not depend on that of any further emperical beliefs.

2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a reason
why it is likely to be true.

3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive possession
of such a reason.

4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he believes
with justification the premises from which it follows that the belief is
likely to be true.

5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least one
empirical premise.

6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the
justification of at least one other empirical belief, contradicting 1.

7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely justified
sceptical beliefs.
Post by gaffo
--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml
http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)
"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.
If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine
"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.
"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter
"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.
"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister
"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.
"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)
"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.
"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04
"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04
"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader
RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?
BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.
RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?
BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04
"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04
"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03
"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03
"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001
"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."
"He threatens not the United States."
"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."
'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001
Keynes
2004-09-23 11:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
What besides a thought can be justified?
And by what means? Thought?
Dixit
2004-09-23 15:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
What besides a thought can be justified?
And by what means? Thought?
You are taking it for granted solipsism is the actual state of affairs
(begging the question).
Virgil
2004-09-23 18:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:54:02 -0700, "Immortalist"
Post by Immortalist
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
What besides a thought can be justified?
And by what means? Thought?
You are taking it for granted solipsism is the actual state of affairs
(begging the question).
Begging a question does not mean that the conclusion is false, merely
that the begging does not prove it true.

There is no possible disproof of the solipsist belief, one must reject
it entirely on faith if one is to reject it at all. As I have done, but
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, seems undecided about.
Dixit
2004-09-24 18:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Dixit
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:54:02 -0700, "Immortalist"
Post by Immortalist
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
What besides a thought can be justified?
And by what means? Thought?
You are taking it for granted solipsism is the actual state of affairs
(begging the question).
Begging a question does not mean that the conclusion is false
Argument from ignorance. Nobody ever has to prove it is false, knucklehead.
Virgil
2004-09-24 20:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Virgil
Begging a question does not mean that the conclusion is false
Argument from ignorance. Nobody ever has to prove it is false, knucklehead.
Does Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, imply that whenever any question
is begged, one may presume that the conclusion is false, even when the
conclusion may be proved true by other means?

That seems ramarkably stupid, even for Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple.
Immortalist
2004-09-23 17:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
That is a thought about an experience not the experience of I Am. Since it is a
belief it cannot be completely justified, neither can that thought.
What besides a thought can be justified?
And by what means? Thought?
Neuroscience seems to indicate that the neural activities that are equivalent to
thought may not be a sufficient set of activities for the necessary set of neural
activities for consciousness nor would thought be necessary for all kinds of
human and or animal consciousness. Thoughts are rattling kettles on the stove?
A.Christian
2004-09-20 03:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
Dixit
2004-09-21 19:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
The problem with solipsism and theism is that they both entail
irrational behavior. The only way to ever reach a conclusion the main
tenet of either thism or solipsism is true is to simply take that for
granted as a premise (begging the question), then argue there is no
proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_).

If anyone wants to take excepton to that then let's see him try to craft
an argument for either of those that does not entail begging the
question or argument from ignorance.

<cue the chirping cicadas>
Virgil
2004-09-21 21:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
The problem with solipsism and theism [and anti-theism] is that they
[all] entail irrational behavior. The only way to ever reach a
conclusion the main tenet of either thism [sic] or solipsism [or
anti-theism] is true is to simply take that for granted as a premise
(begging the question), then argue there is no proof it is false
(argument _ad ignorantiam_).
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, is guilty of exactly that form of
question begging by taking what is at best a reasonable presumption and
sserting that it is fact.
If anyone wants to take excepton to that then let's see him try to craft
an argument for [any] of those that does not entail begging the
question or argument from ignorance.
Of course, this only refers to true theism, the belief that a god or
gods actually exists, not to Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple's
perversion which runs counter to the consensus of everyone who uses that
word, except Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, himself.
Dixit
2004-09-22 00:14:29 UTC
Permalink
... true theism ...
I think I hear bagpipes accompanying that 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.

This is a very simple situation: When looked at objectively theism is
characterized by an irrational religious belief there might be a
magically invisible space pixie anyway, even though there is no such
thing in evidence.

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence." -- Thomas Huxley, Evolution and Ethics
Virgil
2004-09-22 00:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
... true theism ...
I think I hear bagpipes accompanying that 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.
This is a very simple situation: When looked at objectively theism
is whatever is the consensus of the majority who use the word.

And that consensus, as attested to by all dictionary explanations of the
word, is "the belief that some god or gods actaully exists.

Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, can offer no evidence that the
consensus is not precisely what I have said it is. And tht consensus
determines the meaning beyond Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, ability
to revise it to match his own delusions.
Post by Dixit
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence." -- Thomas Huxley, Evolution and Ethics
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, seems to believe, without evidence,
that by repeating his false explanation of "theism" often enough, it
will become the accepted one.

Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, is WRONG! AGAIN!
Jeff Young
2004-09-22 17:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by A.Christian
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
The problem with solipsism and theism is that they both entail
irrational behavior.
Bzzzzzt. You have just begged the question of the existence of
behavior. I deny that you have demonstrated the existence of
behavior. Burden of proof is all yours now, Septic, in the face of my
existential denial. Don't worry, no matter what happens, I'll just
continue to deny that you've ever demonstrated the existence of any
behavior, and the unmet burden will remain _all_ yours, and will
remain unmet by you, forever. Go ahead, just try to craft a
non-question-begging proof of the existence of behavior. <cue the
chirping bunnies>

Why does Septic _insist_ on being the completely question-begging,
petard-hoisted, fallacious, mendacious, and discredited old idiot fool
lying loser of alt.atheism?

Jeff
Keynes
2004-09-23 11:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by A.Christian
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
The problem with solipsism and theism is that they both entail
irrational behavior. The only way to ever reach a conclusion the main
tenet of either thism or solipsism is true is to simply take that for
granted as a premise (begging the question), then argue there is no
proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_).
If anyone wants to take excepton to that then let's see him try to craft
an argument for either of those that does not entail begging the
question or argument from ignorance.
<cue the chirping cicadas>
Thought exists.
That anything else exists is just another thought.
Dixit
2004-09-23 15:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Dixit
Post by A.Christian
Post by gaffo
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
If you are a solipsist, then there never was any Descartes -- you must
have invented him, along with Kant, along with me. If solipsism is
true, then you are the only solipsist in existence, and you invented
me, in order, presumably, to amuse yourself or to annoy yourself.
The problem with solipsism and theism is that they both entail
irrational behavior. The only way to ever reach a conclusion the main
tenet of either thism or solipsism is true is to simply take that for
granted as a premise (begging the question), then argue there is no
proof it is false (argument _ad ignorantiam_).
If anyone wants to take excepton to that then let's see him try to craft
an argument for either of those that does not entail begging the
question or argument from ignorance.
<cue the chirping cicadas>
Thought exists.
You mean the interaction of the millions of neurons in the brain and
nervous system interacting with stimulation from the environment? I
wonder, to be logically consistent, is each of your neurons a solipsist,
holding the irrational belief that it is the only thing there is?
Post by Keynes
That anything else exists is just another thought.
Oh really? What leads to that conclusion? You are simply taking it for
granted that solipsism is the actual state of affairs (begging the
question). Thanks for being so quick to prove my point, above, sir.
Virgil
2004-09-23 17:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dixit
Post by Keynes
Thought exists.
You mean the interaction of the millions of neurons in the brain and
nervous system interacting with stimulation from the environment?
No! At least not until Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, can identify
unambiguously each thought with some particular pattern of " interaction
of the millions of neurons in the brain and nervous system".

Can you do that Septic Capon, old Simple Pimple?
_cloud
2004-09-22 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
gaffo
Post by gaffo
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
try: I exist, therefore I think...
besides,

"And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the
field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not
arrayed like one of these."
Post by gaffo
Nothing else can be proven.
no need to,
ShrikeBack
2004-09-23 03:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by gaffo
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
Even that cannot be proven. First of all, when you translate
it: "I think therefore I exist" it is an example of begging
the question. "I think," implicitly assumes that this "I"
exists.

Nietzsche pointed out that even if you phrase it differently,
as in: "thought occurs, therefore there is a thinker", it is
merely a grammatical prejudice. The reason we assume that
thought implies a thinker is that according to our grammar,
every predicate requires a subject. How can we be certain
our grammatical rules apply to reality?
Immortalist
2004-09-23 05:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ShrikeBack
Post by gaffo
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Kant is a fraud.
Descarte was right in Meditations.
Descarte became a fraud later...........
Solipsism - "I think therefore I exist".........THATS IT.
Nothing else can be proven.
Even that cannot be proven. First of all, when you translate
it: "I think therefore I exist" it is an example of begging
the question. "I think," implicitly assumes that this "I"
exists.
Nietzsche pointed out that even if you phrase it differently,
as in: "thought occurs, therefore there is a thinker", it is
merely a grammatical prejudice. The reason we assume that
thought implies a thinker is that according to our grammar,
every predicate requires a subject. How can we be certain
our grammatical rules apply to reality?
http://www.wutsamada.com/alma/modern/humepid.htm

from A Treatise of Human Nature Book I, Part 4, Section 6

SECTION VI: OF PERSONAL IDENTITY

There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately conscious
of what we call our self; that we feel its existence and its continuance in
existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a demonstration, both of its
perfect identity and simplicity. The strongest sensation, the most violent
passion, say they, instead of distracting us from this view, only fix it the more
intensely, and make us consider their influence on self either by their pain or
pleasure. To attempt a further proof of this were to weaken its evidence; since
no proof can be derived from any fact of which we are so intimately conscious;
nor is there any thing of which we can be certain if we doubt of this.
Unluckily all these positive assertions are contrary to that very experience
which is pleaded for them; nor have we any idea of self, after the manner it is
here explained. For, from what impression could this idea be derived? This
question it is impossible to answer without a manifest contradiction and
absurdity; and yet it is a question which must necessarily be answered, if we
would have the idea of self pass for clear and intelligible. It must be some one
impression that gives rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one
impression, but that to which our several impressions and ideas are supposed to
have a reference. If any impression gives rise to the idea of self, that
impression must continue invariably the same, through the whole course of our
lives; since self is supposed to exist after that manner. But there is no
impression constant and invariable. Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions
and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time. It
cannot therefore be from any of these impressions, or from any other, that the
idea of self is derived; and consequently there is no such idea.

But further, what must become of all our particular perceptions upon this
hypothesis? All these are different, and distinguishable, and separable from each
other, and may be separately considered, and may exist separately, and have no
need of any thing to support their existence. After what manner therefore do they
belong to self, and how are they connected with it? For my part, when I enter
most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular
perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or
pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never
can observe any thing but the perception. When my perceptions are removed for any
time, as by sound sleep, so long am I insensible of myself, and may truly be said
not to exist. And were all my perceptions removed by death, and could I neither
think, nor feel, nor see, nor love, nor hate, after the dissolution of my body, I
should be entirely annihilated, nor do I conceive what is further requisite to
make me a perfect nonentity. If any one, upon serious and unprejudiced
reflection, thinks he has a different notion of himself, I must confess I can
reason no longer with him. All I can allow him is, that he may be in the right as
well as I, and that we are essentially different in this particular. He may,
perhaps, perceive something simple and continued, which he calls himself; though
I am certain there is no such principle in me.

But setting aside some metaphysicians of this kind, I may venture to affirm of
the rest of mankind, that they are nothing but a bundle or collection of
different perceptions, which succeed each other with an inconceivable rapidity,
and are in a perpetual flux and movement. Our eyes cannot turn in their sockets
without varying our perceptions. Our thought is still more variable than our
sight; and all our other senses and faculties contribute to this change: nor is
there any single power of the soul, which remains unalterably the same, perhaps
for one moment. The mind is a kind of theatre, where several perceptions
successively make their appearance; pass, repass, glide away, and mingle in an
infinite variety of postures and situations. There is properly no simplicity in
it at one time, nor identity in different, whatever natural propension we may
have to imagine that simplicity and identity. The comparison of the theatre must
not mislead us. They are the successive perceptions only, that constitute the
mind; nor have we the most distant notion of the place where these scenes are
represented, or of the materials of which it is composed.

What then gives us so great a propension to ascribe an identity to these
successive perceptions, and to suppose ourselves possessed of an invariable and
uninterrupted existence through the whole course of our lives? In order to answer
this question we must distinguish betwixt personal identity, as it regards our
thought or imagination, and as it regards our passions or the concern we take in
ourselves. The first is our present subject; and to explain it perfectly we must
take the matter pretty deep, and account for that identity, which we attribute to
plants and animals; there being a great analogy betwixt it and the identity of a
self or person.
Mark K. Bilbo
2004-09-19 00:50:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:36:15 -0700 in episode
Post by A.Christian
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
The "atheistic thesis" is:

"I don't believe that."

Can't find any "fallacies" in there myself.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
Edgar Svendsen
2004-09-19 04:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.

Ed
A.Christian
2004-09-20 03:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument. First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
folklore:

Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.

Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.

The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.

The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."

God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.

Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore. Folk legends often develop around real beings
whose stories become amplified or ornamented over time. The Great
Pumpkin, I've never heard of outside "Peanuts" and some atheists'
arguments against the existence of Deity. So I don't think he would
qualify as folklore. Fiction, yes. The Great Pumpkin was folklore
within fiction. So in Linus's world, I guess he was folklore. The
Easter Bunny -- I don't know. I guess there are folk tales about the
Easter Bunny, but why wasn't Tom Sawyer on the list? Is it, as I
suspect, because Tom Sawyer is a recognizable literary figure, and not
something any parents try to fool their kids into believing? That
seems to be the common ground in all of this. The Tooth Fairy, I do
not remember encountering in any folk literature at all. But perhaps
you can enlighten me if you know of any.

In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.

Let us examine, then, from the child's point of view, the evidence
there is for the existence of each one of these things:

Easter Bunny -- last night that basket of candy and fake grass wasn't
there, this morning it is. The Easter Bunny did come!

Santa Claus -- same deal for those toys, yay Santa!

Tooth Fairy -- I put a tooth under my pillow, now I have money. The
Tooth Fairy did come!

God -- I exist, the universe exists, nothing comes from nothing, hey
maybe God made us.

Now we are in a position to differentiate a bit more, since the child
grows up and discovers the truth of the matter:

Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.

The second part of your argument:

" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."

Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
That doesn't make sense. If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.

In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.

God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.

So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm

In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.

In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore. If it were not
so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself. And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
Steve Jones
2004-09-21 12:36:24 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com (A.Christian) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

<snip>

The following is not intended to be a reply for all atheists, just for
myself. It's worth reiterating that the only thing atheists have in
common is a lack of belief in gods.

To me, the Kantian stuff is irrelevant other than as a mind exercise -
reality as I experience and understand it is what is important to me.
Also, time is merely an observer-subjective measure of relative
entropy...and Einstein's theories are yet to be proven - although they
presntly provide us with a useful conceptual model which seems to
correspond with observable reality.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument.
First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore.
Just as an aside here, you haven't located "Santa Claus" if you stop
at St. Nicholas. What you've located is a Christianised version of a
much older figure, that of an anthropomorphisation of the winter
solstice. I don't know or care whether St. Nicholas existed, but he's
been pasted over the top of a more generic myth. The Christian church
often used the "embrace and extend" principle, co-opting older myth
and ritual in order to decompress the newly converted into the
religion more gently, and thus avoid rejection.

<snip>
Post by A.Christian
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
I think you're missing the point here, and have got hung up on the "no
evidence outside of folklore" bit of Ed's post. A more general
statement would perhaps be:

"There is no independently corroborated evidence of a god entity, in
the same way as there is no independently corroborated evidence of
pixies, unicorns, wraiths, ghosts, extra-terrestrials and a vast
number of other entities who populate myth, legend and fiction.
Lacking evidence, we say gods, and all the others, do not exist"

<snip>
Post by A.Christian
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
Which conclusion *is* a plausible one for a child - assuming his/her
socialisation includes a religion. For me, however, it's not a
rational one fo a human being in possession of more of the facts about
physics, biology, history and society.
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
That doesn't make sense.
If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
This is, I must say, ludicrous. If any of these things existed, who
is to say what "powers" they may have? The Easter Bunny may have
great flapping five-digit hands, or telekinesis, or a robot helper, or
whatever. Santa Claus may not have ever felt the urge to stop time,
but maybe he could. They may all of them have different powers than
have been recorded. The point is that ANYTHING that a human can
imagine MAY be 'true', but what IS 'true' is the observable or that
which can be reliably corroborated.
Post by A.Christian
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore.
<Sound of Steve wheeling out an old saw>

Can you give an example of, or better, produce, such evidence?

<Saw is wheeled back into shed, needs oiling>
Post by A.Christian
If it were not so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself.
Which simply demonstrates their understandable ignorance of the
physics. Oops, here comes another old saw:

Who caused the causer?

Absent an answer to that one, I'll stick to atheism. I know, I know,
a god doesn't *need* a causer. So why does the universe?
Post by A.Christian
And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
Which is special pleading, writ large: "He's, like, different, man!"

Steve
(Pentlyzic)
Alan Wostenberg
2004-09-21 13:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
The following is not intended to be a reply for all atheists, just for
myself. It's worth reiterating that the only thing atheists have in
common is a lack of belief in gods.
Do many atheists believe in heaven, hell, and angels?
Robibnikoff
2004-09-21 13:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Wostenberg
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
The following is not intended to be a reply for all atheists, just for
myself. It's worth reiterating that the only thing atheists have in
common is a lack of belief in gods.
Do many atheists believe in heaven, hell, and angels?
Of course not.
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Immortalist
2004-09-21 15:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
The following is not intended to be a reply for all atheists, just for
myself. It's worth reiterating that the only thing atheists have in
common is a lack of belief in gods.
To me, the Kantian stuff is irrelevant other than as a mind exercise -
reality as I experience and understand it is what is important to me.
Also, time is merely an observer-subjective measure of relative
entropy...and Einstein's theories are yet to be proven - although they
presntly provide us with a useful conceptual model which seems to
correspond with observable reality.
Are you denying that it took time to type that out or that ir took a space to do
it in. These are undeniable.

Metaphysical exposition of the Concept of Time

1. Time is not an empirical concept that has been derived from any experience.
For neither coexistence nor succession would ever come within our perception, if
the representation of time were not presupposed as underlying them a priori. Only
on the presupposition of time can we represent to ourselves a number of things as
existing at one and the same time (simultaneously) or at different times
(successively).

2. Time is a necessary representation that underlies all [A31/P075] intuitions.
We cannot, in respect of appearances in general, remove time itself, though we
can quite well think time as void of appearances. Time is, therefore, given a
priori. In it alone is actuality of appearances possible at all. Appearances may,
one and all, vanish; but time (as the universal condition of their possibility)
cannot itself be removed.

http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/04aesth.htm#074
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/

Time itself does not alter, but only something which is in time. The concept of
time thus presupposes the perception of something existing and of the succession
of its determinations; that is to say, it presupposes experience.

http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/04aesth.htm#082
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument.
First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore.
Just as an aside here, you haven't located "Santa Claus" if you stop
at St. Nicholas. What you've located is a Christianised version of a
much older figure, that of an anthropomorphisation of the winter
solstice. I don't know or care whether St. Nicholas existed, but he's
been pasted over the top of a more generic myth. The Christian church
often used the "embrace and extend" principle, co-opting older myth
and ritual in order to decompress the newly converted into the
religion more gently, and thus avoid rejection.
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
I think you're missing the point here, and have got hung up on the "no
evidence outside of folklore" bit of Ed's post. A more general
"There is no independently corroborated evidence of a god entity, in
the same way as there is no independently corroborated evidence of
pixies, unicorns, wraiths, ghosts, extra-terrestrials and a vast
number of other entities who populate myth, legend and fiction.
Lacking evidence, we say gods, and all the others, do not exist"
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
Which conclusion *is* a plausible one for a child - assuming his/her
socialisation includes a religion. For me, however, it's not a
rational one fo a human being in possession of more of the facts about
physics, biology, history and society.
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
That doesn't make sense.
If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
This is, I must say, ludicrous. If any of these things existed, who
is to say what "powers" they may have? The Easter Bunny may have
great flapping five-digit hands, or telekinesis, or a robot helper, or
whatever. Santa Claus may not have ever felt the urge to stop time,
but maybe he could. They may all of them have different powers than
have been recorded. The point is that ANYTHING that a human can
imagine MAY be 'true', but what IS 'true' is the observable or that
which can be reliably corroborated.
Post by A.Christian
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore.
<Sound of Steve wheeling out an old saw>
Can you give an example of, or better, produce, such evidence?
<Saw is wheeled back into shed, needs oiling>
Post by A.Christian
If it were not so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself.
Which simply demonstrates their understandable ignorance of the
Who caused the causer?
Absent an answer to that one, I'll stick to atheism. I know, I know,
a god doesn't *need* a causer. So why does the universe?
Post by A.Christian
And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
Which is special pleading, writ large: "He's, like, different, man!"
Steve
(Pentlyzic)
A.Christian
2004-09-22 00:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
The following is not intended to be a reply for all atheists, just for
myself. It's worth reiterating that the only thing atheists have in
common is a lack of belief in gods.
To me, the Kantian stuff is irrelevant other than as a mind exercise -
reality as I experience and understand it is what is important to me.
Also, time is merely an observer-subjective measure of relative
entropy...and Einstein's theories are yet to be proven - although they
presntly provide us with a useful conceptual model which seems to
correspond with observable reality.
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument.
First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore.
Just as an aside here, you haven't located "Santa Claus" if you stop
at St. Nicholas. What you've located is a Christianised version of a
much older figure, that of an anthropomorphisation of the winter
solstice. I don't know or care whether St. Nicholas existed, but he's
been pasted over the top of a more generic myth. The Christian church
often used the "embrace and extend" principle, co-opting older myth
and ritual in order to decompress the newly converted into the
religion more gently, and thus avoid rejection.
Are you saying _adults_ used to believe in a magic elf who brought
their children toys? I doubt that on the grounds that it is fairly
absurd.
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
I think you're missing the point here, and have got hung up on the "no
evidence outside of folklore" bit of Ed's post. A more general
"There is no independently corroborated evidence of a god entity, in
the same way as there is no independently corroborated evidence of
pixies, unicorns, wraiths, ghosts, extra-terrestrials and a vast
number of other entities who populate myth, legend and fiction.
Lacking evidence, we say gods, and all the others, do not exist"
That is better, no doubt. However, we are still talking about apples
and oranges, so to speak. In fact, we may be talking about more
categories than that. Let's examine:

Pixies - small humanoid creatures with magical powers and wings?
Pixies often appear in works of fiction as characters. The small size
and magical power makes them useful as a literary device. More
generally, _Fey_ are allegedly races of humanoid but not human
creatures. I think it is safe to say that most adults are not
convinced as to their actual existence. There are, of course,
exceptions. Myself, I tend to keep an open mind about such things.
I've never _seen_ a fey, but if I had the opportunity, I would not
likely pass it up.

Unicorns - equine creatures with a single horn. The horn allegedly has
"magical" properties. In comparison with pixies, unicorns are much
less removed from probabilty of possible existence. Equine creatures
are known to exist, creatures with horns are known to exist, and a
creature with a single straight horn is known to exist -- the narwhal,
_Monodon monocerous_. It's actually a tusk, not a horn. The absence of
any commonly known horned equine lessens the expected probability of
ever finding a unicorn per se. Goats have been bred that have their
horns fused into one, and it has been advanced that this is
technically a unicorn, but it is an artificially produced creature and
not an equine. Still, all in all, if I had to decide who to believe,
and had to believe one, of the man who said he had seen a faerie and a
man who said he had seen a unicorn, the unicorn seems more likely. But
we digress. No proof of the existence of unicorns, as far as I am
aware. I would submit, however, that the prevailing belief that
unicorns are not in fact real is less due to their being unimaginable
as it is due to their having been imagined, depicted, and used in
literature for so very long. If you heard a report that zoologists had
found a horse with spots like a leopard, you would probably more
easily believe that than a report that they had found a unicorn.

Wraiths - undead spirits magically enslaved...? The existence of
wraiths would require the existence of some other things as necessary,
and for this reason it seems unlikely. We would first have to
establish ghosts, and magic, at the very least.

Ghosts - restless spirits of dead human beings. I would submit that
there are far more adults who believe in ghosts in one form or another
than in unicorns, pixies, or wraiths. My own belief in a ghost would
require further definition. Do you mean simply the spirit of a human
who has died? Or is a ghost a physical manifestation of such a spirit?
If the former, I do believe that human souls survive the death of the
body, and also that not all of them are at rest. I do not call them
ghosts, but that might only be a matter of terminology. If the latter,
I can definitely say that I have never _seen_ a ghost, and I do not
expect that I shall ever see one. However, there are adults who are
convinced that ghosts are real, and it seems to me there are more such
adults than there are adults who believe in unicorns, pixies, or
wraiths. The reason for this is, I think, that the existence of ghosts
is at least plausible in ways that the existence of those other things
is not. Though I readily admit that a unicorn, sans the magic in its
horn, is actually more plausible to me than a ghost. The evidence is
there. There are photographs, and there are unexplained paranormal
phenomena. I myself do not subscribe to the theory that these things
are caused by ghosts, but my attitude is by no means universal.

Extra-terrestrials - do you mean existences beyond the Earth, or do
you mean intelligent beings on other planets, or do you mean
intelligent beings from other planets who have actually visited the
Earth? Obviously, most of the universe is extra-terrestrial in the
first sense. In the second sense, it certainly seems plausible that
there are intelligent beings besides ourselves somewhere in the vast
stretches of the universe. It seems almost preposterous to think there
are not. In the third sense, I have my own reasons for believing it
isn't very likely. It seems to me that if there is anything like a
United Federation of Planets, this particular orb would be
off-limits, due to the horribly unenlightened state in general of its
intelligent population. So any spaceships that do visit us are
probably rebels, interplanetary outlaws. But this is pure speculation
on my part, of course. I have to say that I have never seen an E.T. --
at least, not that I can consciously remember. There are, again,
paramormal phenomena that are at least alleged, and some have advanced
the theory that E.T.'s are responsible. I would have to say the jury
is still definitely out on that one.

Pixies, unicorns, and wraiths all appear to be at least incidentally
connected with magic of some kind. Ghosts and E.T.'s are allegedly
natural phenomena; in the case of ghosts, spiritual, but not magical,
and in the case of E.T.'s, physical with highly advanced technology
but not magic.

God is supernatural. It is probably safe to say that the majority of
adults on this planet do believe in God in some form or another, and
historically, the percentage has most often been much higher than it
is right now. Atheism, while not strictly a modern phenomenon, has
nonetheless never been quite as popular a view as it is at present.
But atheists have never been in the majority, nor, I think, will they
ever be. Many very great thinkers, as mature, responsible adults, have
believed in God. Philosophers, for centuries, have logically derived
the necessary existence of the Primal Ground of Being, the Brahman of
the Hindus, the Tao of the Chinese, the Great Spirit of the Native
Americans. A culture in which belief in God is absent is not known to
us at all, and that includes modern day society. A simple proof, one
of many possible, but the one of my predilection, follows below.
Post by Immortalist
<snip>
Post by A.Christian
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
Which conclusion *is* a plausible one for a child - assuming his/her
socialisation includes a religion.
While it is possible to find individual households that do not raise
their children with any religion, it is impossible to find a whole
culture from which religion of some kind is entirely absent. So, I
think we can safely assume that _everyone's_ socialization includes
religion, at least in the fact that others have it.
Post by Immortalist
For me, however, it's not a
rational one fo a human being in possession of more of the facts about
physics, biology, history and society.
You made two statements in one, there. You began by saying "for me"
and then you generalized to "a human being in possession of more of
the facts, etc." Well, _I_ am a human being in possession of many
facts about physics, biology, history, and society, and I also believe
in God. I believe what I believe with no contradiction. So your
generalization is by no means universal, and as such, it is entirely
unsupported. Maybe you better stick to you, and explain why _you_
think God contradicts physics, biology, history and society. In other
words, can the condescension. It is not becoming of one who seriously
wishes to discuss.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
That doesn't make sense.
If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
This is, I must say, ludicrous. If any of these things existed, who
is to say what "powers" they may have? The Easter Bunny may have
great flapping five-digit hands, or telekinesis, or a robot helper, or
whatever. Santa Claus may not have ever felt the urge to stop time,
but maybe he could. They may all of them have different powers than
have been recorded. The point is that ANYTHING that a human can
imagine MAY be 'true', but what IS 'true' is the observable or that
which can be reliably corroborated.
Fair enough. I would venture that the same applies to God, and that a
God who expected anyone to believe in Him _without_ anything that
could be observed and even corroborated would be asking too much.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore.
<Sound of Steve wheeling out an old saw>
Can you give an example of, or better, produce, such evidence?
<Saw is wheeled back into shed, needs oiling>
Existence, for starters. Mathematics, miracles, the writings of the
Saints. The existence of the Church.

Saint Thomas Aquinas argued in five ways from existence. The existence
of mathematics demonstrates irrefutably that there is some necessary
truth. Miracles are recorded. The Saints wrote. And the Church exists.

I do not think any of this evidence convinces you, at least not yet
(!) But you are right, the old saw of "no evidence" is, well, old. But
I know you did not say there is no evidence, you merely asked for
some. So let's start with existence.

Things exist. I know with certitude that I exist. Our solipsist
comrades would say that's as far as it can go, ever, but I disagree. I
know that I exist, with apodectic certainty, because, as Descartes
pointed out, I think. Therefore, I am. Even if I am deceived about
everything I think, I know, by the very fact that I do think, that I
am. That is a priori knowledge. Now, I know from experience - a
posteriori - that I am limited. I know, from the very concepts of
necessity and contingency, that some necessary being exists. I also
know that I necessarily exist. And I know from experience that I am a
limited existence, limited in space, limited in time, limited in
power. I exist, now, but I justifiably believe that I have not always
existed, that in fact, the world existed for quite some time without
me. That one necessary existence, then, cannot be myself. (I am not a
solipsist.) The one necessary existence, must, in fact, be an
existence that does not change. Otherwise, it could not be the basis
of existence that does change. We only know change as relative to
non-change. I know that I am, and I know (or at least justifiably
believe) that I am not permanent. Therefore, I, the non-solipsist,
cannot be the ground of all being. There must be one unchanging thing
that is the basis of everything else, or else there is nothing at all
to the conception of necessity vs. contingency. The ancient Chinese
called it Tao. The ancient Hindus called it Brahman. The modern-day
solipsist calls it Self. (I submit that a solipsist is a theist by
definition -- he thinks he himself is God.) Whatever it is called, it
must necessarily exist. I like to call it "One." This is the "God" of
the Deist.

Theism does not make its appearance until some being or other shows up
claiming to be that One. When such a being shows up, naturally we ask
it for credentials. And according to the story, one particular such
being manifested himself to Abram of Ur. It is generally accepted by
archeologists that Ur in fact existed. We also know that the people
known as the Hebrews exist even today. In the story (in Genesis) a
being of some kind manifests to Abram and claims to be identical with
that One that is already established to exist by philosophy. Whether
or not Abram of Ur had already derived the existence of One, is
irrelevant. Whether or not he had, this being appeared to him and
claimed to be the Creator of the Universe. In whatever ways Abram was
convinced, we can know for certain -- unless we want to deny the
historicity of the entire account -- that he was, in fact, utterly
convinced that this being's claims were true. To the point of chopping
off a particularly dear and sensitive part of his body because this
being asked him to. Later, he was also willing to sacrifice his only
son, because this being asked him to. Later still, the same being --
at least, purportedly the same one -- worked enough miracles in Egypt
to effect the liberation of the descendants of Abram (now Abraham).
Initially, this One only had to convince Abraham. Later, He wanted to
convince a whole nation, and according to the story, He did so by
pronouncing judgment on all the gods of Egypt. In other words, there
were other entities also claiming to be the One, and the One Himself
challenged them and defeated them.

God can work miracles. Those are among His credentials. That is how it
is possible to know that the One necessary being has manifested
Himself in human history, in other words, crossed the line from Deus
to Theos.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
If it were not so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself.
Which simply demonstrates their understandable ignorance of the
Who caused the causer?
Which natural number precedes zero?
Post by Immortalist
Absent an answer to that one, I'll stick to atheism. I know, I know,
a god doesn't *need* a causer. So why does the universe?
Why do natural numbers need precessors? Every natural number is
preceded by another natural number, all the way back to zero, which
has no precessor. I know, I called God "One," and there are reasons
for that.

The universe is not one thing, it is many things -- in fact, it is the
sum total of all things that are. So when you say "why does the
universe need a cause?" you are not asking for the cause of a specific
thing. Everything in the universe, except God, has a cause. God _is_
the ultimate cause.

To make a simple analogy to number theory, every natural number,
except zero, has a precessor. Zero _is_ the first number.

Now to examine this a little more deeply, I actually think One is the
original number. But when One examines Himself and asks the question,
"where did I come from?" the number zero is manifest as His origin.
When God, the Logos, the Word, examines Himself and asks the question,
"whence did I arise?" the answer is that He is eternally begotten of
the Father. God is One. God the Father is the Origin and the God even
of God the Son. He and His Father are One (1 + 0 = 1). That is why we
refer to the point zero as the origin.
Post by Immortalist
Post by A.Christian
And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
Which is special pleading, writ large: "He's, like, different, man!"
How is God any different from your average run-of-the-mill Omnipotent
Being? How many of those are there?

To reiterate the analogy to number theory: is it, in fact, "special
pleading" on behalf of the number zero to say it is not preceded by
any other natural number? Is that not, rather, a special property that
the number zero does in fact possess? To acknowledge the special
property of a being that does in fact possess that special property is
in no way special pleading. Were we to deny God's Omnipotence, we
would no longer be talking about God.
Edgar Svendsen
2004-09-22 13:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The arguments
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for the
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The Great
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical beings
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is not
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument. First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore. Folk legends often develop around real beings
whose stories become amplified or ornamented over time. The Great
Pumpkin, I've never heard of outside "Peanuts" and some atheists'
arguments against the existence of Deity. So I don't think he would
qualify as folklore. Fiction, yes. The Great Pumpkin was folklore
within fiction. So in Linus's world, I guess he was folklore. The
Easter Bunny -- I don't know. I guess there are folk tales about the
Easter Bunny, but why wasn't Tom Sawyer on the list? Is it, as I
suspect, because Tom Sawyer is a recognizable literary figure, and not
something any parents try to fool their kids into believing? That
seems to be the common ground in all of this. The Tooth Fairy, I do
not remember encountering in any folk literature at all. But perhaps
you can enlighten me if you know of any.
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
Let us examine, then, from the child's point of view, the evidence
Easter Bunny -- last night that basket of candy and fake grass wasn't
there, this morning it is. The Easter Bunny did come!
Santa Claus -- same deal for those toys, yay Santa!
Tooth Fairy -- I put a tooth under my pillow, now I have money. The
Tooth Fairy did come!
God -- I exist, the universe exists, nothing comes from nothing, hey
maybe God made us.
Now we are in a position to differentiate a bit more, since the child
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
They misled you early on about the Tooth Fairy, maybe they did create
the Universe and are misleading you still about that. Do you have proof
that your parents did not create the universe?
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
No, it's further back. The contradictions that appear if one assumes an
omnipotent being conflict with what we know of the universe. Of course, if
one assumes an omnipotent being, He, She or It can do anything, that's what
omnipotent means. (Why do you assume that this assumed creator is male?)
But we observe in the real world that everything is limited, the universe,
itself,
is finite. The existence of something with infinite power does not mesh
with
the environment we see; all kinds of logical and reasonable paradoxes
appear. It is here that the analogy between God and the creatures I
mentioned
operates, to assume the existence of any one of them leads to paradox
and contradiction. That's why I said I don't have proof but I have a
reasonable argument.

Ed
Post by A.Christian
That doesn't make sense. If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore. If it were not
so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself. And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
A.Christian
2004-09-23 06:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The
arguments
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for
the
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The
Great
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical
beings
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is
not
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument. First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore. Folk legends often develop around real beings
whose stories become amplified or ornamented over time. The Great
Pumpkin, I've never heard of outside "Peanuts" and some atheists'
arguments against the existence of Deity. So I don't think he would
qualify as folklore. Fiction, yes. The Great Pumpkin was folklore
within fiction. So in Linus's world, I guess he was folklore. The
Easter Bunny -- I don't know. I guess there are folk tales about the
Easter Bunny, but why wasn't Tom Sawyer on the list? Is it, as I
suspect, because Tom Sawyer is a recognizable literary figure, and not
something any parents try to fool their kids into believing? That
seems to be the common ground in all of this. The Tooth Fairy, I do
not remember encountering in any folk literature at all. But perhaps
you can enlighten me if you know of any.
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
Let us examine, then, from the child's point of view, the evidence
Easter Bunny -- last night that basket of candy and fake grass wasn't
there, this morning it is. The Easter Bunny did come!
Santa Claus -- same deal for those toys, yay Santa!
Tooth Fairy -- I put a tooth under my pillow, now I have money. The
Tooth Fairy did come!
God -- I exist, the universe exists, nothing comes from nothing, hey
maybe God made us.
Now we are in a position to differentiate a bit more, since the child
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
I apologize. I mistook you for someone who was taking this discussion
seriously.
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
They misled you early on about the Tooth Fairy, maybe they did create
the Universe and are misleading you still about that. Do you have proof
that your parents did not create the universe?
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
No, it's further back. The contradictions that appear if one assumes an
omnipotent being conflict with what we know of the universe. Of course, if
one assumes an omnipotent being, He, She or It can do anything, that's what
omnipotent means. (Why do you assume that this assumed creator is male?)
But we observe in the real world that everything is limited, the universe,
itself,
is finite. The existence of something with infinite power does not mesh
with
the environment we see; all kinds of logical and reasonable paradoxes
appear. It is here that the analogy between God and the creatures I
mentioned
operates, to assume the existence of any one of them leads to paradox
and contradiction. That's why I said I don't have proof but I have a
reasonable argument.
Ed
You appear to lack either simple common sense, or enough interest in
this argument to treat it with any seriousness at all. So I will not
waste any more of my time. If you really believe you have a reasonable
argument, I feel some degree of pity for you, because you appear to be
incapable of distinguishing a reasonable argument from sheer
absurdity.

But it takes all kinds, to make a world.

For the sake of your argument, above -- and _only_ if you want to
begin taking this discussion seriously, please don't bother if you
don't -- you have not demonstrated any of these contradictions you say
arise. An ominipotent being can do anything, including create a finite
universe -- no contradiction there.
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
That doesn't make sense. If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore. If it were not
so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself. And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
Edgar Svendsen
2004-09-23 17:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Post by A.Christian
Thesis: There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its
cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
Antithesis: An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world,
nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
He then goes on to prove, or at least many have accepted that he
proved, both sides of the argument. In this, Kant intended to prove
that pure speculative reason cannot solve this dilemma.
I found an essay by Mario Derksen that goes into some detail with the
aim of at least helping to rescue scholastic theology from the blow
dealt to it by the skepticism of David Hume and the subsequent crtical
idealism of Kant. I recommend this essay as it examines the question
to a greater depth than I will go into here. Derksen's essay can be
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/kant.htm
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Time, for Kant, appears, along with space, as part of what he calls
the transcendental aesthetic. Thus he does not ascribe to time any
reality outside of ourselves. And we conceive time without beginning
or end, and space as infintely extended, because it is simply part of
the transendental aesthetic that makes intuition via perception
possible. Nonetheless, one of the consequences of Albert Einstein's
Theory of Relativity is that space-time is unbounded yet finite, as it
curves back upon itself. What Kant failed to take into account is that
IF there is a God, then space and time can exist outside of our minds,
objectively real. And our conception of space and time as infinitely
extended can be simply part of the transcendental aesthetic, necessary
for us to perceive, but contradicted in actual experience. In other
words, if time itself is both real and created, then God can both
exist outside of time and can have created the world in time.
In summation, Kant does commit the fallacy of equivocation in his
proof of the antithesis, i.e. that there is no necessary being. He
proves the thesis quite easily, but he cannot prove the antithesis
without equivocation.
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
Yes, I think so. There are no proofs but there are aguments. The
arguments
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
fot the nonexistence of God are of the same form as the arguments for
the
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
nonexistence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and The
Great
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
Pumpkin. The argument goes: it is probable that these hypothetical
beings
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
do not exist because we find no evidence for them outside of folklore.
Also,the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics. This is
not
Post by A.Christian
Post by Edgar Svendsen
proof, but, it seems to me, it's a good argument.
Ed
So you are assuming that God belongs on the list with the Easter
Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Great Pumpkin. "We find
no evidence for them outside of folklore." Let's examine your
argument. First, let's see if we can locate each of these critters in
Easter Bunny - A magical bunny allegedly responsible for the
appearance of baskets full of candy on Easter morning.
Santa Claus - A magical elf allegedly responsible for the appearance
of toys on Christmas morning.
OR
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, d. 342 A.D.
The Tooth Fairy - A magical fey allegedly responsible for the
appearance of money in exchange for shed baby teeth placed under the
pillow.
The Great Pumpkin - A mythical being believed in by Linus Van Pelt,
who is a character in Charles M. Schulz' "Peanuts."
God - The alleged Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them.
Now taking Santa Claus, which Santa Claus did you mean to refer to as
within folklore? For the moment, I am going to assume you meant the
magical elf. But really, the magical elf is based on the figure from
history, Saint Nicholas, who existed as far as we know (do you care to
dispute the existence of Nicholas of Myra?) So I can see how you find
Santa Claus in folklore. Folk legends often develop around real beings
whose stories become amplified or ornamented over time. The Great
Pumpkin, I've never heard of outside "Peanuts" and some atheists'
arguments against the existence of Deity. So I don't think he would
qualify as folklore. Fiction, yes. The Great Pumpkin was folklore
within fiction. So in Linus's world, I guess he was folklore. The
Easter Bunny -- I don't know. I guess there are folk tales about the
Easter Bunny, but why wasn't Tom Sawyer on the list? Is it, as I
suspect, because Tom Sawyer is a recognizable literary figure, and not
something any parents try to fool their kids into believing? That
seems to be the common ground in all of this. The Tooth Fairy, I do
not remember encountering in any folk literature at all. But perhaps
you can enlighten me if you know of any.
In any case -- and correct me if I am assuming too much -- the
entities, real or fictitious, that you have given all have this in
common: they are explanations given to children for observable
phenomena. Except the Great Pumpkin, but we can pass over that
distinction for the time being.
Let us examine, then, from the child's point of view, the evidence
Easter Bunny -- last night that basket of candy and fake grass wasn't
there, this morning it is. The Easter Bunny did come!
Santa Claus -- same deal for those toys, yay Santa!
Tooth Fairy -- I put a tooth under my pillow, now I have money. The
Tooth Fairy did come!
God -- I exist, the universe exists, nothing comes from nothing, hey
maybe God made us.
Now we are in a position to differentiate a bit more, since the child
Easter Bunny -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Santa Claus -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
Post by A.Christian
Tooth Fairy -- it was my parents all along!
Do you have proof of this, or do you just assume it?
I apologize. I mistook you for someone who was taking this discussion
seriously.
You seem to assume that only people who automatically grant all your
assumptions are serious.
I suspect that you are shading the truth, that your parents did not, in
fact, inform you that it was they who acted as Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and
Easter Bunny. I suspect that you learned that other children around you
felt that they had "learned" the truth and assumed it was true of your
parents too. Even if you have their solemn testimony, how do you know it's
true; perhaps they think it's true but a supernatural being implanted the
idea in their heads; God, as you define it, could do that. Once you assume
an omnipotent being, which can do absolutely anything, how do "prove" that
events are not due to that being's manipulation? This being is capable of
using your parents as the agents to create the Universe if it chooses to do
so, yet you say, as if you had certain knowledge, that "my parents did not
create the Universe"; how can you prove that? Do you believe that God is
omnipotent yet, at the same time, somehow incapable of using your parents to
create the Universe? You assume that God did not do that without offering
any reason for youir assumption.

You accuse me of frivolity, I accuse you of sloppy thinking.

Ed
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
God -- it was my parents all along??? Wait a minute. I can accept that
I am the result of the sexual union of my parents, but my parents did
not create the universe. So maybe God did.
They misled you early on about the Tooth Fairy, maybe they did create
the Universe and are misleading you still about that. Do you have proof
that your parents did not create the universe?
Post by A.Christian
" ... the powers and acts attributed to them are in conflict with what
we
know of the Universe, they contradict what we know of physics."
Easter Bunny -- rabbits cannot carry baskets, they lack opposable
thumbs.
Santa Claus -- no known means of travel is fast enough, considering
the enormity of the world and the required time frame, to carry Santa
to every house all in one night.
Tooth Fairy -- Teeth are mostly Calcium, and coins are mostly Copper,
and no known process can transmute Calcium into Copper. Also, fey have
no pockets.
God -- An omnipotent being cannot be the Creator of the Universe???
No, it's further back. The contradictions that appear if one assumes an
omnipotent being conflict with what we know of the universe. Of course, if
one assumes an omnipotent being, He, She or It can do anything, that's what
omnipotent means. (Why do you assume that this assumed creator is male?)
But we observe in the real world that everything is limited, the universe,
itself,
is finite. The existence of something with infinite power does not mesh
with
the environment we see; all kinds of logical and reasonable paradoxes
appear. It is here that the analogy between God and the creatures I
mentioned
operates, to assume the existence of any one of them leads to paradox
and contradiction. That's why I said I don't have proof but I have a
reasonable argument.
Ed
You appear to lack either simple common sense, or enough interest in
this argument to treat it with any seriousness at all. So I will not
waste any more of my time. If you really believe you have a reasonable
argument, I feel some degree of pity for you, because you appear to be
incapable of distinguishing a reasonable argument from sheer
absurdity.
But it takes all kinds, to make a world.
For the sake of your argument, above -- and _only_ if you want to
begin taking this discussion seriously, please don't bother if you
don't -- you have not demonstrated any of these contradictions you say
arise. An ominipotent being can do anything, including create a finite
universe -- no contradiction there.
Post by A.Christian
Post by A.Christian
That doesn't make sense. If God created the Universe, He also created
whatever manifests to us as the "laws of Physics." If one believes in
miracles, he believes likewise that God can contradict what we know of
physics. But what we know of physics is miniscule compared to the
reality of what physics is. So it is possible that God, having created
Physics in the first place, understands it better than we do and can
manipulate it more easily. It is also possible that what we view as
the "laws of Physics" is only a subset of a larger set of laws as yet
unidiscovered by us.
In any case, the perception of conflict between what little we know of
the universe and the conduct of these beings, real or mythical, is
based largely on assumptions regarding the nature of these beings. If
the Easter Bunny is anything like Oryctolagus cuniculus, then he would
likely lack the opposable thumbs, and besides, he would have the same
locomotion problems as Santa Claus, assuming there is only one Easter
Bunny. If Santa Claus is just an ordinary dude or elf, he probably
does not have the power to stop time. Same for the Tooth Fairy and the
transmutation thing. And where would fey obtain human currency in the
first place? They don't work, and they have nothing useful to sell,
except maybe teeth.
God, on the other hand, if He exists at all, is omniscient and
omnipotent.
So, maybe your argument is not so good. It rests on the fallacy of a
False Analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.
In this case, you have assumed that because God and the Easter Bunny
are each offered as explanations of phenomena to children by parents,
that they also have in common, A) that there is no evidence for them
outside of folklore, and B) that in some meaningful way, they
contradict the known laws of the universe. The reality is that there
is quite a lot of evidence for God outside of folklore. If it were not
so, then no philosopher could ever infer his existence. Yet
philosophers have done just that, for many centuries, arguing mostly
from the universe itself. And, if God does contradict any known laws
of the universe, that would be attributable to His Omnipotence, and
thus the question is not meaningful to the problem of whether or not
He exists.
s***@the.net
2004-09-20 01:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Just the opposite, oh christian bearer of false witness..

[]
Denis Loubet
2004-09-19 21:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
Well, I don't know about all that, but I do know that specific descriptions
of god can be disproved.

For instance, the god described as allowing its followers to drink any
poison with no ill effect. That god can be conclusively tested.

You willing?
--
Denis Loubet
***@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
aka 717
2004-09-21 05:46:03 UTC
Permalink
God is either just a word, an idea, or a real thing.
In any of these cases God exists. It's just a matter
of what God is.
Michael Gray
2004-09-21 08:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by aka 717
God is either just a word, an idea, or a real thing.
In any of these cases God exists. It's just a matter
of what God is.
Why are you artificially restricting the word to the singular case?
Immortalist
2004-09-21 15:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by aka 717
God is either just a word, an idea, or a real thing.
In any of these cases God exists. It's just a matter
of what God is.
The distinguishing feature of propositions that assert the existence of
something. In traditional interpretations of categorical logic, all propositions
are taken to have existential import, but on a modern interpretation, only the
particular propositions, (I and O) have existential import.

http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/e9.htm#eximp
http://sask.usask.ca/~wiebeb/Existential.html
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/existential_fall.html

Existential Fallacy

Definition:

A standard form categorical syllogism with two universal premises has a
particular conclusion.

The idea is that some universal properties need not be instantiated. It may be
true that 'all trespassers will be shot' even if there are no trespassers. It may
be true that 'all brakeless trains are dangerous' even though there are no
brakeless trains. That is the point of this fallacy.

Examples:

1. All mice are animals, and all animals are dangerous, so some mice are
dangerous.

2. No honest people steal, and all honest people pay taxes, so some honest people
pay taxes.

Proof:

Assume that the premises are true, but that there are no instances of the
category described. For example, in (i) above, assume there are no mice, and in
(ii) above, assume there are no honest people. This shows that the conclusion is
false.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/existen.php

An existential fallacy is a formal logical fallacy which is committed when a
categorical syllogism employs two universal premises to arrive at a particular
conclusion. Because it is a formal fallacy, such a categorical syllogism is
invalid. The form of this syllogism is:

All P are Q.
All X are P.
Therefore, some X are Q.

The two premises are universal (All...) whereas the conclusion is particular
(Some...). In some cases, it may seem like such an argument should be valid. For
example:

All mammals are animals.
All cats are mammals.
Therefore, some cats are animals.

Part of the problem here is that all cats are mammals, not some. But the real
error lies in the fact that the class of X above may be a class without any
members. For example:

All spirits are supernatural beings.
All gods are spirits.
Therefore, some gods are supernatural.

If the category "gods" has no members, then the above syllogism cannot establish
the truth of the claim that some gods are supernatural. In a categorical
syllogism, if the two premises are universal, then the conclusion must also be
universal.
George Dance
2004-09-23 18:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.Christian
I have been reading Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read
the section on the antinomies of pure reason, in which I encountered
the very same argument that I previously put forth for the existence
of God, namely that there exists at least one necessary being. This is
Kant's Fourth Antinomy of Pure Reason.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/cprframe.pl?query=16ant1-4.htm,415
snip
Post by A.Christian
As for my own critique of Kant, after having read his fourth antinomy,
I began to wonder whether he might not have committed some fallacy in
the argumentation of one side or the other. And I believe I have found
just that. In his argument for the antithesis, he commits the fallacy
of equivocation.
The link to Kant's Critique online is given above. Here is part of his
P 416 ....
But this necessary existence itself belongs to the sensible world. For
if it existed outside that world, the series of alterations in the
world would derive its beginning from a necessary cause which would
not itself belong (A454 B482) to the sensible world. This, however, is
impossible. For since the beginning of a series in time can be
determined only by that which precedes it in time, the highest
condition of the beginning of a series of changes must exist in the
time when the series as yet was not (for a beginning is an existence
preceded by a time in which the thing that begins did not yet exist).
P 416a
The former alternative, however, conflicts with the dynamical law of
the determination of all appearances in time; and the latter
alternative contradicts itself, since the existence of a series cannot
be necessary if no single member of it is necessary. If, on the other
hand, we assume that an absolutely necessary cause of the world exists
outside the world, then this cause, as the highest member in the
series of the (A455 B483) causes of changes in the world, must begin
the existence of the latter and their series. Now this cause must
itself begin to act, and its causality would therefore be in time, and
so would belong to the sum of appearances, that is, to the world. It
follows that it itself, the cause, would not be outside the world --
which contradicts our hypothesis.
(end quote)
Notice that he begins by talking about the cause of the world, then he
asserts that its causality must exist in time, and here he equivocates
the cause with its causality, and ends by stating that the cause
itself cannot be outside the world. If we remove the equivocation,
there is no reason at all that the cause cannot exist outside the
world and also begin to act in the world at some time.
Well, let's see if we can repair Kant's argument instead:

Let E be any physical event that happens within (ie, at a particular
point in) time. If there's a sufficent cause (or set of causes) C for
E, then C has to be either: an event that happens within time; or an
event that does not happen within time.

Assume that C does not happen in time. Then C is eternal; C has
always happened. But if C is sufficient to cause E, then, if C is
eternal, E is also eternal. Therefore C is an event that must happen
within time.

But if C is an event that happens in time, then - if there is a
sufficient cause (or set of causes B) of C - B also happens within
time.

And back we go, to the cause of the B, and the cause of the cause of
B, and the cause of the cause of the cause of B ... all must be events
that happen within time.

snip
Post by A.Christian
So the question is, are there any proofs or arguments supporting the
atheistic thesis that do not rely on fallacies?
I'd certainly appreciate critiques of this one.
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