Post by firstname.lastname@example.org Post by John Locke Post by email@example.com Post by Alex W. Post by Cloud Hobbit
So we may now dispense with the bullshit of not knowing what kind of
evidence we would accept as proof of God.
Part of omnipotence is omniscience. An omnipotent God would be able
to know what each and every atheist would require as evidence of Him.
End of story.
Why is omniscience a consequence of omnipotence?
To use a crude comparison: the US may have the capability of utterly
destroying the North Korean regime (omnipotence) but they may not have
the knowledge to either target their weapons with perfect precision or
correctly predict the consequences (omniscience).
The second problem is that omnipotence and omniscience both do not imply
the will to act. IOW, a god may know what will happen and may have the
ability to act on this knowledge, but may not have the desire to do so.
By this argument, such defining characteristics prove nothing either way.
Post by Cloud Hobbit
We don't have to know what sort of evidence we need because almighty
God would know.
But he doesn't.
Because he's fiction.
Just like all the Gods that came before or after, they are all
fiction from the minds of people ignorant of the scientific method
and they wanted some way to explain what they couldn't.
It's why nobody ever sees these Gods because they don't really exist.
If the Christian god were real, there would be no reason for him to
be all cryptic and have all kinds of hidden meanings and make it
anything but easy for everyone to understand his requirements.
Instead, we get a piece of crap like the bible that is filled with
stuff that didn't happen and people who didn't exist. Seems to me a
Supreme being would be supremely logical and would understand the
nature of the things he made and would present his law in a way that
was clear to everybody, not just a few tribes in the middle east.
Note that human beings are alleged to have been created in the image of
their god. Logically, therefore, this putative god would be anything
but logical or indeed rational -- we are not, after all.
Why would a god act in a logical way when its subjects/creations are not?
Post by Cloud Hobbit
If he's the god of everything he would have gone everywhere and not
just the middle of fucking nowhere. He would have given them a piece
of land with some fucking oil in the ground. Not that the Israelis
haven't done wonders with the place. Why would he expect a bunch of
mostly illiterates to be trustworthy enough to carry his word to the
rest of the world and why the fuck does he not just do it himself the
lazy bastard. Why go through all the bullshit of making yourself
into your son, hiding him out for 30 years and then killing
Why not just show up everywhere and tell everybody. All at once. In
their own language. god does not seem to have a handle on this
omnipotence idea. Either that or he's just lazy.
Quite so. See above...
And to be honest, if such a god existed (which I do not believe), I
would much prefer it to not act. Why deliver all the goodies into our
laps? How boring would that be! No achievement, no triumph of
overcoming obstacles, no growth. Imagine a life where everything was
catered for, where there was no need for human ingenuity, no need for
grit, no need for dedication or perseverance or sacrifice. Now that
would be a form of hell...
Your ignorance of Judaism and Christianity is glaring.
God has omniscence and omnipotence, but he does not use them to micromanage human affairs. He sets forth his laws for our behavior and then judges us by our compliance with them , but he only does that once for each of us on judgement day. If we get into trouble in the meantime, he judges us by how we deal with the situation.
..if your god had infinite knowledge (by the way, you misspelled
"omniscience") and infinite power, then your god would have provided
direct guidance for his creations
He has. It's in a book called the bible. Ever hear of it?
Your ignorance of his guidance is your fault, not His.
and provided clear, precise,
Post by John Locke
rational laws for humans to follow. And there'd be no overkill of
deadly diseases, rampant plagues and famine.
LOL! It's not his responsibility to keep you safe. He's not your babysitter.
There'd be no
Post by John Locke
consortium of confused religions.
In the ancient world where those religions were born,different groups spoke different languages. The Hindus wrote theirs in their language, the Jews wrote theirs in Hebrew, the Moslems wrote theirs in Arabic and the Chinese wrote their Buddhism in Chinese.
The world would be much different if
Post by John Locke
there were a real god. That's NOT micromanaging...that's you god
fulfilling its obligations.
HAHAHAHA! That's obliations according to YOU. Why would any deity follow the instructions of someone who insists he does not exist? That's ludicrous and you're a fucking idiot.
Why would your imaginary god not want to present an airtight bit of proof that he, in fact, is real? Supposedly he made his presence known in the "holy land,"
why not make an appearance that everyone would be aware of? What would possible reason keep him from the entire rest of the world?
Personally, I don't see why reason why he would even care what we do. Why would an all powerful deity care what we do to each other? Seems just a bit hyper sensitive to me. It's like humans being upset about ants. If they aren't harming us, we ignore them.
It's questions like these and the enormous amount of absolute fiction in the Bible that convince me and most other atheists that none of it makes any sense.
It's much more harmful to believe in nonsense and never question the apparent problems than it is to insist on things making sense. Maybe there would be fewer atheists if all of the Judeo/Christian beliefs made some kind of sense.
The scariest people to me are the ones that think the bible is inerrant when it is full of so many obvious problems with exaggerations of real events and the invention of others. If I were ever going to be a religious person and believe in a god, it would have to be one whose holy book, his supposed instructions to humans would have to make sense. It wouldn't have a god who sends bears to eat kids or pull that horrible shit on Job. He wouldn't insist that women who were raped should pay off her dad or marry her. Makes no sense. I don't believe a god would say that I think a person from that time who did not hold women in much esteem for anything more than sex, children, and as unpaid labor.
Why in the hell would anybody in their right mind expect a rape victim to marry their attacker?
Honestly, does the following make any sense to you?
There are several other passages in the Old Testament, including Genesis 34, Numbers 31:15-18, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Judges 19:22-26, and 2 Samuel 13:1-14, which depict rape or have been interpreted as discussing rape by numerous scholars, including Wil Gafney and Phyllis Trible. In Genesis 34, Dinah is abducted by Shechem in a passage that is often interpreted as rape. In Numbers 31:15-18, Moses, after exacting revenge on the Midianites, commands his army to kill all the boys and every non-virgin woman while telling them to "save for [themselves]" every virgin woman," a phrase which has been interpreted as a passage depicting rape. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 presents laws regarding marrying a captive woman, which has also been regarded as depicting rape. Judges 19:22-26 depicts Gibeah and the Levite Concubine, in which a man sends out his concubine to a group of angry men, where they gang rape her. Afterward, the man cuts up the body of his concubine into twelve pieces and sends them to the Twelve Tribes of Israel. 2 Samuel 13:1-14 involves the rape of Tamar.
This is what you believe should happen?
This is the way you think God wants things?
How about this one?
"And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the Lord hath kindled." Leviticus 10:6
What kind or weirdo thinks up this kind of punishment?
"If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him ... and a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband ... the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water ... this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot." Numbers 5:11-31
Your god has some strange ideas that need explaining. For instance: "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft." Exodus 22:2-3
Can you only kill a burglar during the night? Why should the punishment for burglary b e death ever? Unless a criminal takes a life, I know of no reason why that criminal should lose theirs.
God seems to toss around the death penalty way too freely for my liking.
Without some serious explanation of these things, I can not accept they come from an omnipotent god. And there are so many other confusing and contradictory things in the bible that seem obvious that they have no relationship to the wishes of an omnipotent god.
If god wants us to do things to keep him happy with us, then he needs to expalain why an in such a way that the average human can understand.