Discussion:
What Evolution is not/is
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Cloud Hobbit
2018-06-13 21:48:57 UTC
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http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ev.not.html

Biological Evolution...
1. is NOT a fact (as "fact" is defined most strictly: as a critical observation by many careful observers). However, parts of this very long process have been observed directly, and its extension to all life is supported by more evidence than there is for the structure and movements of our Solar System, and there is no evidence against it. So, it is considered as a real process. Some call it an "inferred fact."

2. is NOT something one should believe in...(it's based on science, not faith or authority).

3. Is NOT concerned with the origin of life... (it deals only with the origin of species).

4. Is NOT just concerned with the origin of humans...(no more than any other species)

.5. was NOT discovered or first explained by Charles Darwin... (there were others before him)

6. is NOT the same thing as natural selection...(which is the how of evolution, the real "Theory of Evolution ...by Natural Selection." Natural selection, in its role of evolution, is also deeply confirmed. It has also been directly observed, by itself, therefore, it's a fact).

7. is NOT something that happened only in the past... (it's still going on).

8. is NOT something that happens to individuals...(it happens to populations and species).

9. is NOT an accidental or random process...(there are limitations and selective aspects; even mutations are influenced by the environment). Its complex patterns are just as natural as the randomly generated and diverse patterns of snowflakes and crystals.

10. does NOT have any evidence against it... (all observations and studies support it).

11. was NOT contrived to undermine religion...(rather, our awareness of it grew as we tried to make sense of many observations of life that were not consistent with traditional explanations).

12. does NOT deny the existence of God...(It is neutral; God is neither required nor eliminated; for all we know, evolution could be part of God's Creation, or it might not, but science cannot determine that).

13. does NOT conflict with any religion...(It can't, since it is only another way of trying to make sense of the natural world, based on scientific observation and critical analysis. Most religions have no problem with evolution, and those that do typically base their objections on an inaccurate understanding of science and evolution).


If these popular misconceptions about evolution are all wrong, then what IS evolution?
Continue on...

EVOLUTION: What it IS

Biological Evolution is essentially the process whereby new species arise from earlier species by accumulated changes. This is often referred to as "descent with modification." At the species level, this speciation process is sometimes called microevolution.

Macroevolution: By extension, as this process of speciation proceeds with time, increasing numbers of species appear, becoming increasingly different. The pattern of this, over time, looks like a branching tree; all the species we see today are like the growing tips of that tree, except that each tip has become somewhat different from the others (unlike a real tree). Close clusters of tips are most similar, and have most recently branched (evolved); more distant tips are more different, and can be traced to much lower (earlier) branchings in the tree. What we call a "genus" would be a close cluster of similar tips. The "family" level of classification (which may include several genera) refers to a group of several closely branched clusters. And so on. Evolution at these "higher" levels is sometimes called macroevolution, but it should be obvious that this simply results from continuous microevolution repeated and accumulated over long periods of time.

The recognition of this pattern of change of life-forms over time was developed from many observations. It has even been directly observed in some species, and inferred in many others from clear independent evidence mainly in comparative anatomy, embryology, paleontology, geology, biogeography and molecular biology. Although there are some curious examples of evolution, there are no empirical observations of life, living or extinct, that evolution cannot explain, and there is no evidence against evolution.

The mechanism for how evolution happens has been largely explained by natural selection. In 1859, Charles Darwin published his best known book (out of some 25 books he wrote): On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. In it, he presented the results of some 20 years of work pulling together massive amounts of evidence showing how natural selection must be the primary working mechanism for evolution. Natural selection is observed constantly, and its role as the main driving force of evolution has been observed, tested and challenged many times and in many ways, and has survived fully intact.

There are also many independent lines of evidence that are consistent with natural selection as the main mechanism of evolution. There is NO observed evidence against this as a working mechanism for evolution. Efforts by some to point out "evidence against evolution" always turn out, under critical examination, to be totally without merit. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection (or, more precisely, the Theory of Natural Selection), therefore, holds the high status of near certainty: it is a scientific theory.
In short, evolution as a real phenomenon is settled science; and the scientific theory for how evolution happens is so well documented by the evidence that this explanation is as close to a scientific fact as any explanation can be. Remember: scientific facts refer to critical observations of natural phenomena. Many significant parts of evolution have been directly and critically observed, so we have inferred that the total diversity of species over time must be the result of evolution. It is, therefore, an inferred fact. Scientific theories are the best explanations we have for how those phenomena occur, e.g., the theory of natural selection.
MarkA
2018-06-13 22:01:01 UTC
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Post by Cloud Hobbit
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ev.not.html
Biological Evolution...
1. is NOT a fact (as "fact" is defined most strictly: as a critical
observation by many careful observers). However, parts of this very long
process have been observed directly, and its extension to all life is
supported by more evidence than there is for the structure and movements
of our Solar System, and there is no evidence against it. So, it is
considered as a real process. Some call it an "inferred fact."
2. is NOT something one should believe in...(it's based on science, not
faith or authority).
3. Is NOT concerned with the origin of life... (it deals only with the origin of species).
4. Is NOT just concerned with the origin of humans...(no more than any other species)
.5. was NOT discovered or first explained by Charles Darwin... (there
were others before him)
6. is NOT the same thing as natural selection...(which is the how of
evolution, the real "Theory of Evolution ...by Natural Selection."
Natural selection, in its role of evolution, is also deeply confirmed.
It has also been directly observed, by itself, therefore, it's a fact).
7. is NOT something that happened only in the past... (it's still going on).
8. is NOT something that happens to individuals...(it happens to populations and species).
9. is NOT an accidental or random process...(there are limitations and
selective aspects; even mutations are influenced by the environment).
Its complex patterns are just as natural as the randomly generated and
diverse patterns of snowflakes and crystals.
10. does NOT have any evidence against it... (all observations and studies support it).
11. was NOT contrived to undermine religion...(rather, our awareness of
it grew as we tried to make sense of many observations of life that were
not consistent with traditional explanations).
12. does NOT deny the existence of God...(It is neutral; God is neither
required nor eliminated; for all we know, evolution could be part of
God's Creation, or it might not, but science cannot determine that).
13. does NOT conflict with any religion...(It can't, since it is only
another way of trying to make sense of the natural world, based on
scientific observation and critical analysis. Most religions have no
problem with evolution, and those that do typically base their
objections on an inaccurate understanding of science and evolution).
If these popular misconceptions about evolution are all wrong, then what IS evolution?
Continue on...
EVOLUTION: What it IS
Biological Evolution is essentially the process whereby new species
arise from earlier species by accumulated changes. This is often
referred to as "descent with modification." At the species level, this
speciation process is sometimes called microevolution.
Macroevolution: By extension, as this process of speciation proceeds
with time, increasing numbers of species appear, becoming increasingly
different. The pattern of this, over time, looks like a branching tree;
all the species we see today are like the growing tips of that tree,
except that each tip has become somewhat different from the others
(unlike a real tree). Close clusters of tips are most similar, and have
most recently branched (evolved); more distant tips are more different,
and can be traced to much lower (earlier) branchings in the tree. What
we call a "genus" would be a close cluster of similar tips. The "family"
level of classification (which may include several genera) refers to a
group of several closely branched clusters. And so on. Evolution at
these "higher" levels is sometimes called macroevolution, but it should
be obvious that this simply results from continuous microevolution
repeated and accumulated over long periods of time.
The recognition of this pattern of change of life-forms over time was
developed from many observations. It has even been directly observed in
some species, and inferred in many others from clear independent
evidence mainly in comparative anatomy, embryology, paleontology,
geology, biogeography and molecular biology. Although there are some
curious examples of evolution, there are no empirical observations of
life, living or extinct, that evolution cannot explain, and there is no
evidence against evolution.
The mechanism for how evolution happens has been largely explained by
natural selection. In 1859, Charles Darwin published his best known book
(out of some 25 books he wrote): On the Origin of Species by Means of
Natural Selection. In it, he presented the results of some 20 years of
work pulling together massive amounts of evidence showing how natural
selection must be the primary working mechanism for evolution. Natural
selection is observed constantly, and its role as the main driving force
of evolution has been observed, tested and challenged many times and in
many ways, and has survived fully intact.
There are also many independent lines of evidence that are consistent
with natural selection as the main mechanism of evolution. There is NO
observed evidence against this as a working mechanism for evolution.
Efforts by some to point out "evidence against evolution" always turn
out, under critical examination, to be totally without merit. The Theory
of Evolution by Natural Selection (or, more precisely, the Theory of
it is a scientific theory.
In short, evolution as a real phenomenon is settled science; and the
scientific theory for how evolution happens is so well documented by the
evidence that this explanation is as close to a scientific fact as any
explanation can be. Remember: scientific facts refer to critical
observations of natural phenomena. Many significant parts of evolution
have been directly and critically observed, so we have inferred that the
total diversity of species over time must be the result of evolution. It
is, therefore, an inferred fact. Scientific theories are the best
explanations we have for how those phenomena occur, e.g., the theory of
natural selection.
Nice summary.

In the general sense, evolution is a fundamental property of the
Universe. It applies to any, and *all* systems where information is
copied, altered, and subjected to a test of fitness.

Nobody gives a second thought to the fact that languages, religions,
clothes, cars, aircraft, computers, etc, all evolve. But when applied to
biology, it immediately raises the uncomfortable idea that humans evolved
from earlier, non-human primates. Hence, all the brouhaha among
creationists, who need to feel "special".

Though "biological evolution", by definition, does not deal with the
origin of life, the development of self-replicating molecular systems
that could influence their environment was an example of evolution from
earlier systems that did not have such properties.
--
MarkA

You can safely assume that you have created God in your own image when it
turns out that God hates all the same people you do. -- Anne Lamott
b***@m.nu
2018-06-14 00:57:23 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT), Cloud Hobbit
Post by Cloud Hobbit
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ev.not.html
Are these your ideas or did you get them from somewhere else? I do
have a problem with one or more of the items listed here
Post by Cloud Hobbit
Biological Evolution...
1. is NOT a fact (as "fact" is defined most strictly: as a critical observation by many careful observers). However, parts of this very long process have been observed directly, and its extension to all life is supported by more evidence than there is for the structure and movements of our Solar System, and there is no evidence against it. So, it is considered as a real process. Some call it an "inferred fact."
2. is NOT something one should believe in...(it's based on science, not faith or authority).
3. Is NOT concerned with the origin of life... (it deals only with the origin of species).
4. Is NOT just concerned with the origin of humans...(no more than any other species)
.5. was NOT discovered or first explained by Charles Darwin... (there were others before him)
6. is NOT the same thing as natural selection...(which is the how of evolution, the real "Theory of Evolution ...by Natural Selection." Natural selection, in its role of evolution, is also deeply confirmed. It has also been directly observed, by itself, therefore, it's a fact).
7. is NOT something that happened only in the past... (it's still going on).
8. is NOT something that happens to individuals...(it happens to populations and species).
This is totally incorrect. When something evolves a mutation occurs in
the DNA of one single individual (ie. blue eyes) in humans, This
mutated DNA is transferred to the offspring and to their offspring
etc.... Which is why all people with blue eyes are believed to come
from the same ancestor. So it very much so happens to one individual
in particular(at first anyway.)
Post by Cloud Hobbit
9. is NOT an accidental or random process...(there are limitations and selective aspects; even mutations are influenced by the environment). Its complex patterns are just as natural as the randomly generated and diverse patterns of snowflakes and crystals.
also this may not be correct... Mutations are largely governed by
environment, but it is mainly a random process (ie. sons shorter or
taller than their father and their sibling taller or shorter than they
are)
Post by Cloud Hobbit
10. does NOT have any evidence against it... (all observations and studies support it).
11. was NOT contrived to undermine religion...(rather, our awareness of it grew as we tried to make sense of many observations of life that were not consistent with traditional explanations).
12. does NOT deny the existence of God...(It is neutral; God is neither required nor eliminated; for all we know, evolution could be part of God's Creation, or it might not, but science cannot determine that).
sounds like you got this from a theist website
Post by Cloud Hobbit
13. does NOT conflict with any religion...(It can't, since it is only another way of trying to make sense of the natural world, based on scientific observation and critical analysis. Most religions have no problem with evolution, and those that do typically base their objections on an inaccurate understanding of science and evolution).
It conflicted with all religions until pope john paul II declared that
catholics are to now believe life has evolved but their fairy created
the first single cell organism
Post by Cloud Hobbit
If these popular misconceptions about evolution are all wrong, then what IS evolution?
Continue on...
EVOLUTION: What it IS
Biological Evolution is essentially the process whereby new species arise from earlier species by accumulated changes. This is often referred to as "descent with modification." At the species level, this speciation process is sometimes called microevolution.
Macroevolution: By extension, as this process of speciation proceeds with time, increasing numbers of species appear, becoming increasingly different. The pattern of this, over time, looks like a branching tree; all the species we see today are like the growing tips of that tree, except that each tip has become somewhat different from the others (unlike a real tree). Close clusters of tips are most similar, and have most recently branched (evolved); more distant tips are more different, and can be traced to much lower (earlier) branchings in the tree. What we call a "genus" would be a close cluster of similar tips. The "family" level of classification (which may include several genera) refers to a group of several closely branched clusters. And so on. Evolution at these "higher" levels is sometimes called macroevolution, but it should be obvious that this simply results from continuous microevolution repeated and accumulated over long periods of time.
The recognition of this pattern of change of life-forms over time was developed from many observations. It has even been directly observed in some species, and inferred in many others from clear independent evidence mainly in comparative anatomy, embryology, paleontology, geology, biogeography and molecular biology. Although there are some curious examples of evolution, there are no empirical observations of life, living or extinct, that evolution cannot explain, and there is no evidence against evolution.
The mechanism for how evolution happens has been largely explained by natural selection. In 1859, Charles Darwin published his best known book (out of some 25 books he wrote): On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. In it, he presented the results of some 20 years of work pulling together massive amounts of evidence showing how natural selection must be the primary working mechanism for evolution. Natural selection is observed constantly, and its role as the main driving force of evolution has been observed, tested and challenged many times and in many ways, and has survived fully intact.
There are also many independent lines of evidence that are consistent with natural selection as the main mechanism of evolution. There is NO observed evidence against this as a working mechanism for evolution. Efforts by some to point out "evidence against evolution" always turn out, under critical examination, to be totally without merit. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection (or, more precisely, the Theory of Natural Selection), therefore, holds the high status of near certainty: it is a scientific theory.
In short, evolution as a real phenomenon is settled science; and the scientific theory for how evolution happens is so well documented by the evidence that this explanation is as close to a scientific fact as any explanation can be. Remember: scientific facts refer to critical observations of natural phenomena. Many significant parts of evolution have been directly and critically observed, so we have inferred that the total diversity of species over time must be the result of evolution. It is, therefore, an inferred fact. Scientific theories are the best explanations we have for how those phenomena occur, e.g., the theory of natural selection.
Andrew
2018-06-14 08:38:34 UTC
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evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
Oko Tillo
2018-06-14 13:17:15 UTC
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ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.

To the tune of 90,000 human deaths a year.

Of course the countless millions of rodents and other
small mammals that die in envenomated agony each year
would doubtless regard us as mere collateral damage.

(and Genesis to the contrary, they don't go around eating dust either --
snakes are very good at being snakes. all praise evolution)


Oko
Andrew
2018-06-14 14:07:57 UTC
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Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
Kit
2018-06-14 17:11:01 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
On what basis do you claim thorns, thistles, and venom did not exist before the purported "fall"?

-- Kit
Michael Cole
2018-06-14 17:52:11 UTC
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Thorns, thistles, and venom are hundreds of millions of years olds. Hominids subject to sin and a “fall” only hundreds of thousands, or at most a couple million years old. But Andrew is sadly brainwashed and incapable of rational discussion of this topic.
Oko Tillo
2018-06-14 18:03:49 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
ooo
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
Yabbut how many hundred posts have you thrown up here
claiming that complex biological systems are proof of
an --> Awesome Creator?

You know: anyone saying otherwise is against "the know laws of science",
I seem to recall. Pretty sure of that.

And modifying salivary glands into venom sacks,
changing teeth into hypodermics, completely
altering the dentition from a grass chomper to a carnivore,
setting up all the biochemistry that churns out venom
with its literally thousands of compounds, retooling
a herbivore's digestive system into a one that will
function in a meat eater ... Who are you saying was
the Creative genius behind all that?

(if not blind and unguided evolution, that is)

Me, I think it speaks well of God -- clearly He doesn't
hold a grudge. Turned out an amazingly efficient
killing machine there, He did. I suspect God loves
danger noodles, He made so many of them.)

(unless danger noodles never ate "every green herb" in the first place, that is)



Oko
Oko Tillo
2018-06-15 18:42:13 UTC
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Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
ooo
ooo
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
Yabbut how many hundred posts have you thrown up here
claiming that complex biological systems are proof of
an --> Awesome Creator?
You know: anyone saying otherwise is against "the know laws of science",
I seem to recall. Pretty sure of that.
And modifying salivary glands into venom sacks,
changing teeth into hypodermics, completely
altering the dentition from a grass chomper to a carnivore,
setting up all the biochemistry that churns out venom
with its literally thousands of compounds, retooling
a herbivore's digestive system into a one that will
function in a meat eater ... Who are you saying was
the Creative genius behind all that?
(if not blind and unguided evolution, that is)
Me, I think it speaks well of God -- clearly He doesn't
hold a grudge. Turned out an amazingly efficient
killing machine there, He did. I suspect God loves
danger noodles, He made so many of them.)
(unless danger noodles never ate "every green herb" in the first place, that is)
Oko
It appears that Andrew has left the building.

He quite predictably does that whenever he claims that
God Himself built in a provisions for evolutionary variation,
but then someone else observes that all the nasty
lifeforms resulting from Andrew terms "the Fall" must have
been pre-programmed by God as well.

Such as danger noodles, the current topic.

Quite similarly he will bring up complex "biological nanomachines"
as evidence of his Designer, but then flee when he's given
examples of such nanomachines as are used to spread disease
and death.

Andrew is nothing if not consistent.


Oko
Malte Runz
2018-06-14 22:01:01 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn, thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?

Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
--
Malte Runz
Christopher A. Lee
2018-06-14 22:23:51 UTC
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 00:01:01 +0200, Malte Runz
Post by Malte Runz
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn, thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?
Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
Does the myth even have plants on the ark?
Kit
2018-06-15 00:08:01 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 00:01:01 +0200, Malte Runz
Post by Malte Runz
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn, thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?
Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
Does the myth even have plants on the ark?
IIRC, the Bible account does NOT mention Noah taking plants of every kind.

-- Kit
Oko Tillo
2018-06-15 01:11:05 UTC
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Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 00:01:01 +0200, Malte Runz
Post by Malte Runz
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn, thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?
Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
ooo
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Does the myth even have plants on the ark?
Nope. So all the herbivores had to try to hold on for a few
months until whatever seeds survived a year of immersion
sprouted, grew, blossomed, fruited. Pretty damn long
wait for creatures who, in the best of times, have to spend their entire day
foraging just to get enough energy to spend all of tomorrow foraging.

The carnivores, on the other hand ... well, did I mention all those herbivores?

Meanwhile, back on the beach:

And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast,
and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

And the Lord smelled a sweet savour...

and said "DAMMIT NOAH! You're supposed to SAVE those! Why do I even try?!?"


Oko
TT Liams
2018-06-15 01:42:19 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 18:11:05 -0700 (PDT), Oko Tillo
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 00:01:01 +0200, Malte Runz
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 07:07:57 -0700, "Andrew"
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original
Creation.
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn, thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?
Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
ooo
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Does the myth even have plants on the ark?
Nope. So all the herbivores had to try to hold on for a few
months until whatever seeds survived a year of immersion
sprouted, grew, blossomed, fruited. Pretty damn long
wait for creatures who, in the best of times, have to spend their entire day
foraging just to get enough energy to spend all of tomorrow
foraging.
Post by Oko Tillo
The carnivores, on the other hand ... well, did I mention all those herbivores?
LOL!
Post by Oko Tillo
And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast,
and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the
altar.
Post by Oko Tillo
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour...
and said "DAMMIT NOAH! You're supposed to SAVE those! Why do I even try?!?"
LOLOL!!
Post by Oko Tillo
Oko
%
2018-06-15 01:43:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Malte Runz
2018-06-15 08:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:23:51 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 00:01:01 +0200, Malte Runz
Post by Andrew
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
Thorns, thistles, venom, and also death are results from the
curse that came upon this world from the --Fall--. They did
not exist before then, and they will not exist in the new age
when God makes all things new.
How fast did the plants and animals develop thorn[s], thistles and venom
after the Fall? How many generations would you say?
Did the plants and animals onboard the Ark have those features?
Does the myth even have plants on the ark?
'Well... I mean... There probably... God is just so -->awesome<-- Does
that answer your question?'
--
Malte Runz
duke
2018-06-17 15:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oko Tillo
ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
No, I wouldn't see "preplanning" by God.
Post by Oko Tillo
To the tune of 90,000 human deaths a year.
Of course the countless millions of rodents and other
small mammals that die in envenomated agony each year
would doubtless regard us as mere collateral damage.
(and Genesis to the contrary, they don't go around eating dust either --
snakes are very good at being snakes. all praise evolution)
Oko
the dukester, American-American


*****
The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did in
the OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.
*****
Oko Tillo
2018-06-17 20:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
ooo
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
No, I wouldn't see "preplanning" by God.
That's because you're not following Andrew's "logic" to
its inescapable conclusion. Andrew said God programmed it in
"at the very Beginning".

This is the sort of thing that happens when you jump into
the middle of a thread without knowing what's being talked about.


Oko
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
To the tune of 90,000 human deaths a year.
Of course the countless millions of rodents and other
small mammals that die in envenomated agony each year
would doubtless regard us as mere collateral damage.
(and Genesis to the contrary, they don't go around eating dust either --
snakes are very good at being snakes. all praise evolution)
Oko
the dukester, American-American
*****
The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did in
the OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.
*****
duke
2018-06-18 22:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
ooo
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
Post by Andrew
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
No, I wouldn't see "preplanning" by God.
That's because you're not following Andrew's "logic" to
its inescapable conclusion. Andrew said God programmed it in
"at the very Beginning".
That's AW's opinion. God created and let evolve. No programming. At least not
that it's obvious.
Post by Oko Tillo
This is the sort of thing that happens when you jump into
the middle of a thread without knowing what's being talked about.
I'm that smart.

the dukester, American-American


*****
The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did in
the OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.
*****
hypatiab7(hypatiab7)
2018-06-17 22:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
No, I wouldn't see "preplanning" by God.
So, you're saying that your god never thinks things through in advance.
No wonder your myth is so screwed up.
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
To the tune of 90,000 human deaths a year.
Of course the countless millions of rodents and other
small mammals that die in envenomated agony each year
would doubtless regard us as mere collateral damage.
(and Genesis to the contrary, they don't go around eating dust either --
snakes are very good at being snakes. all praise evolution)
duke
2018-06-18 22:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 15:11:09 -0700 (PDT), "hypatiab7(hypatiab7)"
Post by hypatiab7(hypatiab7)
Post by duke
Post by Oko Tillo
ooo
Post by Andrew
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation.
Variation and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory
to Him, the most awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
For example, God in His Wisdom preplanned that innocent
herb munching vegetarian snakes would some day evolve
both deadly venom and the complex mechanisms they need
to inject that venom.
No, I wouldn't see "preplanning" by God.
So, you're saying that your god never thinks things through in advance.
No wonder your myth is so screwed up.
Thinks things thru?????? Haahaahaa. God does not exist in time and space, but
in ALL time and ALL space.

God well knows your eternal demise.

the dukester, American-American


*****
The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did in
the OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.
*****

Gronk
2018-06-17 04:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation. Variation
and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory to Him, the most
awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
Just ONE teensy detail - where did this "creator" come from?
b***@m.nu
2018-06-17 07:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gronk
evolution could be part of God's Creation..
That is correct. It was indeed part of His original Creation. Variation
and the ability to adapt have been programmed
into the Creation at the very Beginning--->by God. Glory to Him, the most
awesome One --->our Heavenly Father.
Just ONE teensy detail - where did this "creator" come from?
and one other detail.... How did the catholic church go from hard core
adam and eve to evolution was gods plan?

I will tell you how...

The pope woke up one morning and said our religion is fucked if we
don't make up new stories...
Michael Cole
2018-06-14 11:52:07 UTC
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Raw Message
I disagree with your first statement that evolution is not a fact. There are two questions that must be distinguished: 1. Have the extant living things we find in the world evolved from preexisting different life forms? 2. How does life evolve? Are there explanations for why life has evolved the way it did?

The answer to question 1 is yes. In that sense evolution is a fact about as well established as any other fact we know about the world. Question 2 is addressed by our theories of evolution, notably Darwin’s theory of natural selection and the necessary supporting theories of genetics, embryology, etc.

To make a simple analogy, is solar radiation a fact or theory? It is both. The fact of solar radiation is the observed shining of the sun. Theories of solar radiation seek to explain the underlying physics and try to account for the exact spectrum of radiation emitted by the sun.
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