Discussion:
Why Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out
(too old to reply)
Cloud Hobbit
2017-04-18 21:48:38 UTC
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These guys can't get no respect.

I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/

I have a confession to make.

Well, it’s more like a profession:

Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.

Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).

Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).

I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.

Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).

Here’s are my top reasons why Calvinism isn’t for me– and why I don’t think it’s for you either:

One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.

Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.

Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.

Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.

Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.

When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.

Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.

I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.

For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.

The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.

I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.

esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.

Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.

As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).

From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).

As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.

I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.

I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)

I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.

I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.

In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.

If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
Joe Bruno
2017-04-19 04:57:32 UTC
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Post by Cloud Hobbit
These guys can't get no respect.
I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/
I have a confession to make.
Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.
Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).
Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).
I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.
Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).
One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.
Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.
Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.
Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.
Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.
When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.
Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.
I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.
For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.
The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.
I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.
esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.
Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.
As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).
From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).
As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.
I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.
I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)
I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.
I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.
In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.
If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
Do the Calvinists tell you to stop being an atheist? No?
Mind your own fucking business.
hypatiab7
2017-04-19 05:49:58 UTC
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Post by Joe Bruno
Post by Cloud Hobbit
These guys can't get no respect.
I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/
I have a confession to make.
Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.
Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).
Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).
I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.
Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).
One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.
Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.
Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.
Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.
Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.
When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.
Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.
I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.
For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.
The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.
I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.
esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.
Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.
As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).
From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).
As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.
I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.
I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)
I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.
I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.
In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.
If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
Do the Calvinists tell you to stop being an atheist? No?
Mind your own fucking business.
This is our atheist newsgroup. We can say or write whatever we want here.
You, Joe Bruno (Arthur Tandy) go against our FAQ/Charter and are, therefore,
a troll. Please stop cross-posting our messages to other newsgroups.
Joe Bruno
2017-04-19 06:15:07 UTC
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On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:49:59 PM UTC-7, hypatiab7 wrote:



https://tinyurl.com/kuc5cu2
Davej
2017-04-19 17:15:13 UTC
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[...]
Do the Calvinists tell you...
Brain dead Joe Bruno.
Bob
2017-04-19 17:21:02 UTC
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Raw Message
On 4/19/2017 1:15 PM, Davej wrote:

[...]

Yes, you are correct.

God is sovereign.

He decides who gets to be with Him in Heaven,
and who doesn't.

Poor davey-b0y can't stand not being sovereign
like God.

<smirk>
Kevrob
2017-04-20 23:45:47 UTC
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Post by Joe Bruno
Post by Cloud Hobbit
These guys can't get no respect.
I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/
Benjamin L Corey wrote this. Links are nice, but name the author, please.
If I know him to be a nut, I won't hit the link.
Post by Joe Bruno
Post by Cloud Hobbit
I have a confession to make.
Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.
Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).
Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).
I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.
Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).
One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.
Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.
Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.
Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.
Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.
When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.
Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.
I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.
For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.
The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.
I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.
esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.
Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.
As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).
From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).
As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.
I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.
I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)
I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.
I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.
In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.
If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
Do the Calvinists tell you to stop being an atheist? No?
Mind your own fucking business.
Follow your own damned advice and stop trolling the group.

Bob and the other Calvinists post their noxious bilge here continually,
much as you discharge your literary effluent.

You aren't trying to make new Jews, and they aren't likely to find
stray members of their fictitious "elect" here. Why do both of
you post? Are you just "counting coup" on the goyim or the "totally
depraved?" Madness. Futile madness.

Points off, CH, for the massive copypasta. Selectively quote and
post a link, and do proper attribution, please. Even religious
nutbars enjoy copyright under our laws. :)

Kevin R
Bob
2017-04-21 04:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 4/20/2017 7:45 PM, Kevrob wrote:

[...]
Bob and the other Calvinists post their noxious bilge here continually...
Then why do you read it?

The only person forcing you to read it is you.

You have no one else to blame but yourself.

BTW, name for me one other Calvinist who posts here continually.

Or, you can just stay in that corner you've backed yourself into.
Cloud Hobbit
2017-04-22 07:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Joe Bruno
Post by Cloud Hobbit
These guys can't get no respect.
I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/
Benjamin L Corey wrote this. Links are nice, but name the author, please.
If I know him to be a nut, I won't hit the link.
Post by Joe Bruno
Post by Cloud Hobbit
I have a confession to make.
Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.
Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).
Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).
I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.
Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).
One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.
Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.
Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.
Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.
Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.
When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.
Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.
I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.
For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.
The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.
I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.
esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.
Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.
As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).
From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).
As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.
I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.
I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)
I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.
I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.
In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.
If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
Do the Calvinists tell you to stop being an atheist? No?
Mind your own fucking business.
Follow your own damned advice and stop trolling the group.
Bob and the other Calvinists post their noxious bilge here continually,
much as you discharge your literary effluent.
You aren't trying to make new Jews, and they aren't likely to find
stray members of their fictitious "elect" here. Why do both of
you post? Are you just "counting coup" on the goyim or the "totally
depraved?" Madness. Futile madness.
Points off, CH, for the massive copypasta. Selectively quote and
post a link, and do proper attribution, please. Even religious
nutbars enjoy copyright under our laws. :)
Kevin R
I know it was really long, but it was essentially for the theists idiots like joe, aaa, and Bob. Joe might go to a link, but bob and I'm sure a few other theists would not bother, so I wanted to make sure they would see it and more than they probably wanted too.

I shall do better in future.
Bob
2017-04-19 05:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message

hypatiab7
2017-04-19 05:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/vbx-9neSzjU
I will delete your message unread, Calvinist Robert Duncan.
Joe Bruno
2017-04-19 06:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:57:33 PM UTC-7, hypatiab7 wrote:


https://tinyurl.com/kuc5cu2
Bob
2017-04-19 06:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hypatiab7
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/vbx-9neSzjU
I will delete your message unread, Calvinist Robert Duncan.
Good. I wasn't meant for you to read anyway.

You're doing exactly what I want you to do.

You're a good little robot.

Now, sit down and shut up.
Jeanne Douglas
2017-04-19 11:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by hypatiab7
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/vbx-9neSzjU
I will delete your message unread, Calvinist Robert Duncan.
Good. I wasn't meant for you to read anyway.
You're doing exactly what I want you to do.
You're a good little robot.
Now, sit down and shut up.
Wow, you're pretty pathetic if you think that would work here.
--
Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.5
http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
Bob
2017-04-19 15:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by hypatiab7
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/vbx-9neSzjU
I will delete your message unread, Calvinist Robert Duncan.
Good. It wasn't meant for you to read anyway.
You're doing exactly what I want you to do.
You're a good little robot.
Now, sit down and shut up.
Wow, you're pretty pathetic if you think that would work here.
You read my message.

It did work, just as I expected it would.

See "Child (Reverse) Psychology". The same psychology God used
on Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Again, you did exactly as I wanted you to do.

And you're still a good little robot.

<smirk>
Kevrob
2017-04-20 23:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by hypatiab7
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/vbx-9neSzjU
I will delete your message unread, Calvinist Robert Duncan.
Good. I wasn't meant for you to read anyway.
You're doing exactly what I want you to do.
You're a good little robot.
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
Post by Bob
Now, sit down and shut up.
FOAD, troll.

Kevin R
Bob
2017-04-21 02:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect, who thinks of God
as just another human being, i.e. anthropomorphizes God.

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His
own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet
so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered
to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of
second causes taken away, but rather established."
(Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, I)

Free Will vs. Robot

Kevrob
2017-04-21 07:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect, who thinks of God
as just another human being, i.e. anthropomorphizes God.
I don't believe in any such boojum. You theists are the
ones who have anthropomorphized natural, impersonal forces
to create these "ghod" characters for your fairy tales.

I'd name some of the other troll-whackos who sound like
you, but they may chime in, and who needs that?

Kevin R
Bob
2017-04-21 07:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect, who thinks of God
as just another human being, i.e. anthropomorphizes God.
I don't believe in any such boojum.
That must be your mantra.

That's cute. A little weak, but still cute.

<smirk>
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bob
"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His
own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet
so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered
to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of
second causes taken away, but rather established."
(Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, I)
Free Will vs. Robot
http://youtu.be/p0HQ-_iNbq0
Kevrob
2017-04-21 07:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect, who thinks of God
as just another human being, i.e. anthropomorphizes God.
I don't believe in any such boojum.
That must be your mantra.
That's cute. A little weak, but still cute.
<smirk>
If there really were a hell, it might be worth it
to see scum like you end up in it, while everyone
you condemn gets to go to Tír na nÓg or wherever....

Just a story, though.

Kevin R
Bob
2017-04-21 08:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect, who thinks of God
as just another human being, i.e. anthropomorphizes God.
I don't believe in any such boojum.
That must be your mantra.
That's cute. A little weak, but still cute.
<smirk>
If there really were a hell, it might be worth it
to see scum like you end up in it, while everyone
you condemn gets to go to Tír na nÓg or wherever....
I exposed your mantra, but now you're mad.

You think of me that way, *because* I've been chosen for everlasting
joy, and you haven't. It's only natural that you would feel that way.

But it doesn't change anything. You're still going to Hell, and I'm
still going to Heaven.

The saints in heaven will behold the torments of the damned: "the smoke
of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."

"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that
have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither
shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all
flesh." (Isa. 66:24) And in Rev. 14:10 it is said, that they shall be
tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the
Lamb. So they will be tormented in the presence also of the glorified
saints." (Jonathan Edwards - The Eternity of Hell Torments)

So I'll be able to "see" you as you're being tormented. I don't know if
you'll be able to "see" me, but if you just happen to notice someone
waving at you, and mouthing the words, "Do you still think it's a myth?",
that will be me.

See ya later....<smirk>
Jeanne Douglas
2017-04-21 11:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect,
How do you know he's "non-elect"?

How do you know he's "unregenerate"?
--
Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.5
http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
Bob
2017-04-21 12:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect,
How do you know he's "non-elect"?
How do you know he's "unregenerate"?
The same way I know you wouldn't be able to live without a television.

But more than anything else, this is alt.atheism.

Now do you get it, Simple-minded Sally?

You should spend more time thinking about what you're asking before
you hit that SEND button.
Mitchell Holman
2017-04-21 12:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Bob
Post by Kevrob
It logically follows from your theology that you are a
robot, too.
It would to an unregenerate non-elect,
How do you know he's "non-elect"?
How do you know he's "unregenerate"?
The same way I know you wouldn't be able to live without a television.
But more than anything else, this is alt.atheism.
Correct.

It is for and about atheism.

So why are you posting religious babble here?
Bob
2017-04-19 06:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message

John Locke
2017-04-19 12:17:59 UTC
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Raw Message
Has God Predetermined Every Detail in the Universe, Including Sin?
...there is no evidence for any god so the obvious answer is NO.
Bob
2017-04-19 15:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Has God Predetermined Every Detail in the Universe, Including Sin?
...I have not found any evidence for God, so the obvious answer for me
is NO. However, I understand that some people may have been given
more evidence than I was able to find on my own, in which case, for
them the answer would be YES.
I corrected your miswording for you.

You're welcome.
duke
2017-04-20 22:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/nSSLLpVChng
Pre known, yes, but causation, no.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Bob
2017-04-21 02:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by duke
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/nSSLLpVChng
Pre known, yes, but causation, no.
Your god is too small.
duke
2017-04-21 18:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob
Post by duke
Post by Bob
http://youtu.be/nSSLLpVChng
Pre known, yes, but causation, no.
Your god is too small.
God doesn't not select those that will fail. But he knows.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Yap Honghor
2017-04-19 07:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cloud Hobbit
These guys can't get no respect.
I think other religious people think Calvinists are full of shit, just like we atheists do.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/why-calvinism-makes-me-want-to-gouge-my-eyes-out/
I have a confession to make.
Out of all of the theologies in the world, I find Calvinism among the most offensive. And frustrating. And irritating.
Like the kind of stuff that makes me want to gouge out my eyes (or something like that).
Truth be told, I like Calvinism as much as I like black olives… and I wouldn’t eat a black olive if I were on a game show for a lot of money (okay, maybe I would– but I wouldn’t become a Calvinist for a lot of money).
I’ve never really been a Calvinist. I tried it out for a few weeks in seminary and it was the longest year of my life. I did give it my best shot though, and even got into an argument with my wife once (while she was trying to take a shower) and told her that she had to become a Calvinist. Thankfully, within a short amount of time I realized this faith structure wasn’t going to work.
Perhaps I was just predestined to rejecting it. Or maybe, I chose to reject it. Either way, I am convinced that Calvinism (especially the neo-calvinism of today) is the kind of stuff that we need to flee (get the hell away from).
One of the key aspects of Calvinism is a concept called “predestination” which essentially means, God picked the people who are going to heaven. Where it gets sick is on the flip side of that same coin (a position held by Calvin), that God also picks the people who go to hell. There are no choices involved– before God even created us, he hand picked who would go to heaven and who he would burn in hell for all of eternity.
Now, we know from the teachings of Jesus that the group of people in history who embrace God is smaller than the group who do not (broad vs. narrow road). If both Calvinists and Jesus are equally correct, the result is purely evil. This would mean that God created a MAJORITY of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for all of eternity, and that they never had a choice. God would have created them for the sole purpose of torturing them. I just don’t think I can worship a god who would do something like that.
Case in point: if I get to heaven and find out that my beautiful daughter Johanna is in hell and that she’s in hell because God chose her before the foundations of the world to burn for all eternity, I won’t be able to worship him in good conscience. Perhaps I would bow down out of total fear, but I would NOT worship him because he was holy, beautiful, and “all together wonderful” as Boyd often describes him. Instead, I would bow down because he would be a sick and twisted god who scared the crap out of me.
Calvinism, especially Neo-Calvinism today, seems to have a fetish of sorts with God’s anger.
Hang around the average Calvinist very long, and there’s a good chance you’re going to get a mental picture of God that is largely defined by anger and wrath. While I do believe that God gets angry, and do believe there are times he has acted on that anger throughout scripture, this is not what Jesus majors on when he taught people what God was like. Calvinists often build a worldview on anger, while Jesus built one on love.
When Jesus tried to explain what God is like, he simply told people “look at me- if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen him” (John 14:9). In Jesus, we don’t see a God who is dominated by wrath, but a God who is consumed with nonviolent love. Calvinism makes me want to gouge my eyes out because it’s a belief system that keeps showing me a God who doesn’t look like the Jesus I see in the New Testament.
Calvinism sends the WRONG message to the folks that were Jesus’ favorite kind of people: outsiders & misfit toys.
I still remember starting a new school when I was in the 7th grade– I wanted so badly to be included. We didn’t have much money and I only had 2 pair of pants and a couple of shirts, so I was often made fun of for wearing the same clothes over and over. At the same time, I was one of the only kids in school to get bad acne, and was constantly ostracized and told that I only had it because I didn’t wash my face. It was miserable. To top it off, I was small in stature and not good at sports– which, when you put all these things together, I can safely say that I wasn’t picked for anything.
For the vast majority of my life I have felt like I was one of those “not good enoughs” who doesn’t get picked and doesn’t get included.
The message of Calvinism could have an encouraging message for me: you got picked! However, knowing that most people do not get picked for the team but instead, get picked for destruction and torture, a guy like me will probably always be convinced that I was picked for the latter– because that’s been my experience in life.
I have rejected Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, because in the later, we are able to proclaim the truth that God has picked everyone! If you want to be on the team- you’re welcome; the choice is yours. We don’t need a belief system that leaves us wondering as to whether or not we got picked; we need a belief system that assures us we were already picked and that we’re free to enjoy the benefits of being picked.
esus’ favorite people were the outisders and misfits. In his first sermon he was almost executed for proclaiming that those thought to be not chosen were actually included on God’s list, and in the act that ultimately did get him executed, Jesus was proclaiming that God is one who makes room for those who we thought were not chosen.
Calvinism, in contrast to Jesus, teaches that God picks a few and not the rest– that God is the sports captain from my 7th grade gym class, including the glee that comes with pounding on the kids who didn’t get picked.
Calvinism reduces the beauty of the cross.
As a Jesus follower, I think the cross is the central point of all of human history. The cross was God’s ultimate act of nonviolent enemy love, the act that that demonstrated God’s love for the whole world (John 3:16), the act that drew all people to God (John 12:32), and the act that reconciled all of creation to God (Col 1:20).
From a Calvinist paradigm, the cross is quite different. The cross isn’t the moment where Jesus died to reconcile all of creation– the whole world– but the moment where Jesus died simply for the few people God picked. This is a concept they call “limited atonement” that reduces the cross to being an act for the “elect” (those God picked) instead of an act for the world (John 3:16) and all of creation (Col. 1:20).
As such, instead of the Gospel being Good News for the world, it becomes good news for the few people God picked for his team and becomes absolutely horrible news for everyone else in history.
I’m sorry, but I think what Jesus did for us is bigger, and more beautiful than that. I think the cross is actually “good news” for everyone who is willing to chose love.
Calvinism produces some of the most toxic culture in Christianity.
I feel somewhat bad saying this, but I think I can honestly admit that there are only 3 Calvinists I’ve met in my life who I actually like– two are friends in my “real” life and one is a Christian blogger whom I really like and respect. Even those inside the movement are realizing the toxicity of the culture as one of my Calvinist friends recently told me that even they find the likability factor of most Calvinists to be wanting. If insiders experience the culture this way, could it be that something is totally depraved about it? (bad pun)
I tried to give it my best shot– really, I did. I think the last straw was in seminary when I asked the guy sitting next to me why he was a Calvinist and he simply replied, “because it’s on every page of scripture”. Or, maybe it was the way many Calvinists treat women as second class citizens. Or maybe it’s the way being told I’m “totally depraved” and that God “might not have picked me” makes me hate myself and live in constant fear. Or maybe it was just the obnoxious behavior of Calvinists on twitter. Perhaps it was even Driscoll himself.
I don’t know. What I do know, is that even if Calvinism were true, I wouldn’t last a day in Calvinist culture. No thanks.
In the end, I can’t ascribe to Calvinist theology because my experience with Calvinist theology does not jive with my experience of a God who loves everyone, who desires to be in relationship with everyone, and who went to the cross… for everyone.
If you’re an outsider like me, I hope you’ll embrace what is really true about God: he picked you. I know that he picked you. Even in all your messiness, he still picks you today. The true message of the Gospel is that you have been picked, you are loved, and that you are free to chose whether or not you’re willing to fully experience that love.
I don't understand you....
If a potential spy master can be trained to withstand all kinds of torture and ready to face death, for the love of his ideology or nation, what is there to be scared of an evil stupid deity??????

As I have mentioned before, even if there is a real deity in the sky, it can fuck off and I will upright stand instead of kneel....it cannot do anything with me, nothing!!!!!
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-19 11:07:44 UTC
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I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes
out, or gouging out anyone's anything, generally.
Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the
man who gouged his eyes out. Obviously.
Smiler
2017-04-19 23:23:49 UTC
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I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
Bob
2017-04-20 00:56:54 UTC
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Post by Smiler
I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
Your words can only do damage to those with the same mindset as yourself.

Those of us who have been chosen, and have the Holy Spirit as our teacher,
intrinsically know that the truth found in the Word of God gives us anything
but "blind" obedience.

Blind obedience is something that Satan's slaves, i.e. those of the same
mindset as yourself, must continually endure on a daily basis.

But I've already said too much. There are some among you so blind as to
actually think I were trying to convert you. As if converting the rejected
non-elect was actually a possibility. I mean, how ludicrous can you get?
Mitchell Holman
2017-04-20 02:08:43 UTC
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Post by Bob
But I've already said too much.
Good.

Then leave.
Post by Bob
There are some among you so blind as
to actually think I were trying to convert you.
If not then why are you posting here?
Smiler
2017-04-21 01:32:21 UTC
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Post by Bob
Post by Smiler
I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
Your words can only do damage to those with the same mindset as yourself.
How?
Post by Bob
Those of us who have been chosen, and have the Holy Spirit as our
teacher, intrinsically know that the truth found in the Word of God
gives us anything but "blind" obedience.
What god would that be?
Post by Bob
Blind obedience is something that Satan's slaves,
Another supposed Christian outs himself as a Satanist.
Post by Bob
i.e. those of the same
mindset as yourself, must continually endure on a daily basis.
But I've already said too much.
Yes. You are well known for saying too much.
Post by Bob
There are some among you so blind as to
actually think I were trying to convert you. As if converting the
rejected non-elect was actually a possibility. I mean, how ludicrous can
you get?
Not as ludicrous as you, that's for sure.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
Bob
2017-04-21 02:28:25 UTC
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On 4/19/2017 7:23 PM, Smiler wrote something, but never said
anything of any real substance. Just a lot of ad hominem vituperation.
[...]

Anybody can do that.
Jeanne Douglas
2017-04-21 11:03:16 UTC
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Post by Smiler
Post by Bob
Post by Smiler
I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
Your words can only do damage to those with the same mindset as yourself.
How?
Post by Bob
Those of us who have been chosen, and have the Holy Spirit as our
teacher, intrinsically know that the truth found in the Word of God
gives us anything but "blind" obedience.
What god would that be?
Post by Bob
Blind obedience is something that Satan's slaves,
Another supposed Christian outs himself as a Satanist.
Post by Bob
i.e. those of the same
mindset as yourself, must continually endure on a daily basis.
But I've already said too much.
Yes. You are well known for saying too much.
Post by Bob
There are some among you so blind as to
actually think I were trying to convert you. As if converting the
rejected non-elect was actually a possibility. I mean, how ludicrous can
you get?
Not as ludicrous as you, that's for sure.
I really love it when they give us straight lines like that.
--
Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.5
http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
Bob
2017-04-21 12:14:36 UTC
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Post by Jeanne Douglas
I really love it when they give us straight lines like that.
I've noticed both of you enjoy playing games with the words,
rather than responding to them in a rational manner.

They call that "adolescent immaturity".
Jeanne Douglas
2017-04-22 07:26:45 UTC
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Post by Bob
Post by Jeanne Douglas
I really love it when they give us straight lines like that.
I've noticed both of you enjoy playing games with the words,
rather than responding to them in a rational manner.
They call that "adolescent immaturity".
If you would say something rational, we would respond with rationality. Since you only post nonsense, we respond in kind.
--
Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.5
http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
Cloud Hobbit
2017-04-22 07:36:38 UTC
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Post by Bob
Post by Smiler
I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
Your words can only do damage to those with the same mindset as yourself.
Those of us who have been chosen, and have the Holy Spirit as our teacher,
intrinsically know that the truth found in the Word of God gives us anything
but "blind" obedience.
Blind obedience is something that Satan's slaves, i.e. those of the same
mindset as yourself, must continually endure on a daily basis.
But I've already said too much. There are some among you so blind as to
actually think I were trying to convert you. As if converting the rejected
non-elect was actually a possibility. I mean, how ludicrous can you get?
Why here?

What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
Bob
2017-04-22 08:58:29 UTC
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Post by Cloud Hobbit
What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the
least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are
not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
The question on everybody's mind is: why do you keep reading my posts?

How ludicrous can you get?
Mitchell Holman
2017-04-22 12:37:15 UTC
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Post by Cloud Hobbit
What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the
least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are
not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
"Why do you keep posting religious screeds to an atheism group?"
Kevrob
2017-04-22 14:34:53 UTC
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Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Cloud Hobbit
What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the
least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are
not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
"Why do you keep posting religious screeds to an atheism group?"
1.) He thinks he's of "The Elect" and he is humble-bragging about it.
"It is a gift from ghod, I did nothing to deserve it, but I will
live eternally in heaven and you are doomed to fry." He doesn't
quite add "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyaaaah-nyah!"

2.) He thinks he's under orders from Yahooey.

3.) He's a troll. Pissing people off online is what they live
for, if that's living.

Kevin R
Bob
2017-04-22 17:57:22 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Cloud Hobbit
What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the
least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are
not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
"Why do you keep posting religious screeds to an atheism group?"
1.) He thinks he's of "The Elect" and he is humble-bragging about it.
"It is a gift from God, I did nothing to deserve it, but I will
live eternally in heaven and you are doomed to fry." He doesn't
quite add "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyaaaah-nyah!"
Nor have I ever added, "you are doomed to fry".
That is your lie, and liars are going to Hell.

See the difference? Facts are facts.
Post by Kevrob
2.) He thinks he's under orders from God.
Yes, to always speak the truth, no matter who it hurts.
Post by Kevrob
3.) He's a troll. Pissing people off online is what they live
for, if that's living.
No, that's just your opinion.
But the fact still remains, you can't get enough of me.

I'm detecting a major contradiction in your worldview.
--
"When atheists are presented with critical reasoned arguments, they often
respond with either personal insults, twisted logic and reasoning along
with semantics with excessive detail of complete speculation presented
as truth, to deviate from the critical argument at hand, and talk at
cross purposes to evade it." --Retro
Christopher A. Lee
2017-04-22 16:30:51 UTC
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 07:37:15 -0500, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Cloud Hobbit
What is the point of all your religious crap in a place where the
least number of people are going to see it. You keep saying you are
not trying to convert people, then what are you doing here?
"Why do you keep posting religious screeds to an atheism group?"
Because it's a psychopathic game for him, like pulling the wings off
flies, torturing cats and dogs or scrawling swastika graffiti outside
a synagogue.

He's previously said he does it because he can.

But normal people don't do that to complete strangers out of
irrational hatred because they don't share the same beliefs.
Tim
2017-04-22 09:58:35 UTC
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Post by Bob
Post by Smiler
I've posted my disagreement with gouging your eyes out, or gouging out
anyone's anything, generally. Specifically as a philosophical stratagem.
I don't see it helping. Neither does the man who gouged his eyes out.
Obviously.
But Calvinism is blind obedience.
Your words can only do damage to those with the same mindset as yourself.
Those of us who have been chosen, and have the Holy Spirit as our teacher,
intrinsically know that the truth found in the Word of God gives us anything
but "blind" obedience.
Blind obedience is something that Satan's slaves, i.e. those of the same
mindset as yourself, must continually endure on a daily basis.
But I've already said too much.
Yes, you should have shut up long ago.
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