Discussion:
Evolution Unleashed
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Viktor Tandofsky
2021-06-07 12:57:42 UTC
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https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Ted
2021-06-07 13:11:13 UTC
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On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-
-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
So why do the mice's progeny exhibit the
same fear of almonds? Can you summarize
it for us, AJ?
Vincent Maycock
2021-06-07 17:01:28 UTC
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On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
This article is criticizing confidence in certain evolutionary
mechanisms, not evolution itself. And for Ted, the second-generation
mice were afraid of almonds because of some mark that got put onto the
sperm of the parents which had been exposed to the almonds.

This is not the same thing as a simplistic Lamarckian evolutionary
model where, for example, giraffes have stretched their necks out
trying to reach leaves high in the trees without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
Christopher A. Lee
2021-06-07 19:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
This article is criticizing confidence in certain evolutionary
mechanisms, not evolution itself. And for Ted, the second-generation
mice were afraid of almonds because of some mark that got put onto the
sperm of the parents which had been exposed to the almonds.
This is not the same thing as a simplistic Lamarckian evolutionary
model where, for example, giraffes have stretched their necks out
trying to reach leaves high in the trees without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
I didn't see the original.

The obvious question is, how did their parents' fear of almonds get
into the genome?

I would suggest that there might be better alternatives, like the
young mice being nipped/cuffed/etc by their parents if they went near
the almonds.
Vincent Maycock
2021-06-08 01:29:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:46:42 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Ted
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
This article is criticizing confidence in certain evolutionary
mechanisms, not evolution itself. And for Ted, the second-generation
mice were afraid of almonds because of some mark that got put onto the
sperm of the parents which had been exposed to the almonds.
This is not the same thing as a simplistic Lamarckian evolutionary
model where, for example, giraffes have stretched their necks out
trying to reach leaves high in the trees without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
I didn't see the original.
The obvious question is, how did their parents' fear of almonds get
into the genome?
They say it's an epigenetic effect. The almonds may have modified the
sperm of the parent mice, leading to differential fertilization.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
I would suggest that there might be better alternatives, like the
young mice being nipped/cuffed/etc by their parents if they went near
the almonds.
Could be. If they weren't "lab mice," the first generation might have
well had that kind of access to the second generation.

However, note this from Wikipedia:

"Environmental factors can induce the epigenetic marks (epigenetic
tags) for some epigenetically influenced traits,[2] while some marks
are heritable,[2] thus leading some to consider that with epigenetics,
modern biology no longer rejects the inheritance of acquired
characteristics (Lamarckism) as strongly as it once did.[3]"

https://tinyurl.com/yhexenpp
nature bats last
2021-06-07 23:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
==
Post by Ted
This article is criticizing confidence in certain evolutionary
mechanisms, not evolution itself.
I'd put it a tad differently -- not criticizing the traditional selective mechanisms,
but rather noting that those are not the sole drivers of evolution -- processes
such as epigenetic marking of gametes, evo-devo responses to environments
external and internal, cultural transmission among a wide range of animals,
inherent genotypic biases ("What if some ways of building a fish are just more
probable than others?") and a whole host of other proposed mechanisms
that make evolution richer and more flexible than simply mechanical genetic variation
followed by selection.
Post by Ted
And for Ted, the second-generation
mice were afraid of almonds because of some mark that got put onto the
sperm of the parents which had been exposed to the almonds.
Yep. Methylation to silence a gene (or demethylation to switch it on again)
in the gamete. Epigenetics.
Post by Ted
This is not the same thing as a simplistic Lamarckian evolutionary
model where, for example, giraffes have stretched their necks out
trying to reach leaves high in the trees without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
Exactly. PZ Myers said a decade or more ago that you can
ignore any article about epigenetics which contains the
word "Lamarckian" -- unless it's preceded by a "not".


Seth
Ted
2021-06-08 05:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT), Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evol
utionary-theory
Post by Ted
This article is criticizing confidence in certain evolutionary
mechanisms, not evolution itself. And for Ted, the
second-generation
Post by Ted
mice were afraid of almonds because of some mark that got put onto the
sperm of the parents which had been
exposed to the almonds.
This is not the same thing as a simplistic Lamarckian evolutionary
model where, for example, giraffes have stretched their necks out
trying to reach leaves high in the trees without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
Thank you, Vincent.
----------- A t h e i s t ------------
2021-06-08 11:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vincent Maycock
without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
That's right, we know for fact that evolution has occurred in
the past, but _exactly_ how we don't yet know. Yet.
--
There is no verifiable evidence of any god(s). None whatsoever.
A Jesus is as useful as a Zeus.
Extortion (Believe or Burn) is _THE_ foundation of Christianity.
sycophant - an ass kisser of un-evidenced dictator god.
P+Barker
2021-06-08 14:19:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 Jun 2021 04:22:52 -0700, ----------- A t h e i s t
Post by ----------- A t h e i s t ------------
Post by Vincent Maycock
without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
That's right, we know for fact that evolution has occurred in
the past, but _exactly_ how we don't yet know. Yet.
I guess God hasn't revealed it to us yet?
Mitchell Holman
2021-06-08 18:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by P+Barker
On Tue, 08 Jun 2021 04:22:52 -0700, ----------- A t h e i s t
Post by ----------- A t h e i s t ------------
Post by Vincent Maycock
without an explanation of
exactly *how* that's supposed to happen.
That's right, we know for fact that evolution has occurred in
the past, but _exactly_ how we don't yet know. Yet.
I guess God hasn't revealed it to us yet?
Why is that, do you think?

JWS
2021-06-07 19:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
Christopher A. Lee
2021-06-07 20:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by JWS
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
One of mine attacked an oven mitt which looked like a fish head with a
huge mouth.
John Locke
2021-06-07 20:48:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 15:27:02 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by JWS
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
One of mine attacked an oven mitt which looked like a fish head with a
huge mouth.
...after having lived with cats all my life, I can safely state that
cats are just plain weird but highly entertaining, intelligent and
loving creatures. I'd be lost without my fuzzy cat buddy !


---------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is not enough love and kindness in the world to give any of
it away to imaginary beings." - Friederich Nietzsche
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle Malkin
2021-06-07 21:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Locke
On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 15:27:02 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by JWS
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
One of mine attacked an oven mitt which looked like a fish head with a
huge mouth.
...after having lived with cats all my life, I can safely state that
cats are just plain weird but highly entertaining, intelligent and
loving creatures. I'd be lost without my fuzzy cat buddy !
Same here. I was worried about Klaatu for the last few
days. He wasn't eating even his favorite foods, though
it was obvious that he wanted to. He just kicked
imaginary dirt over it. His teeth are fine and his nose
was cool and wet. But, he was acting strangely, too. I
checked his litterbox and discovered the problem.
Kitty backup! Yesterday, I checked the litterbox again.
The problem had solved itself. His behavior
has returned to normal. And, he ate like a little fuzzy
pig all day yesterday. Whew! I just wrote all this in
case it happens with anyone else's cat. If it lasts
longer than two days, call a vet!
Post by John Locke
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is not enough love and kindness in the world to give any of
it away to imaginary beings." - Friederich Nietzsche
---------------------------------------------------------------------
JWS
2021-06-08 02:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by JWS
Post by Viktor Tandofsky
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
One of mine attacked an oven mitt which looked like a fish head with a
huge mouth.
You have to have your camera ready at all times.
Ted
2021-06-08 07:52:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 15:27:02 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:57:44 AM UTC-5, Viktor Tandofsky
wrote:
https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolu
tionary-theory
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Cats are afraid of cucumbers.
One of mine attacked an oven mitt which looked like a fish head with a
huge mouth.
LOL
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