Discussion:
** (fChrist) is indeed an utter disgrace ...
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%
2020-02-28 03:49:39 UTC
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How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where God
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart to show off.
wouldn't you
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-28 08:09:01 UTC
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** (fChrist) 02/28/20 Again praying ...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/g6yJdizMuBA/tjww5apaEAAJ
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-08 23:24:17 UTC
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** (fChrist) 03/08/20 Again praying ...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/g6yJdizMuBA/tjww5apaEAAJ
Lucifer
2020-02-28 09:02:34 UTC
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On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
Robert
2020-02-28 18:03:35 UTC
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On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:02:34 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
Not in the least.
Post by Lucifer
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
What history, it is not to be found.
Post by Lucifer
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
No doubt the bible you wrote says that.

This is for all the non thinkers, and those that are slow off
understanding.

There is a type of servitude/slavery that is acceptable, and a type
that is not.

Most of you all are in servitude but are too slow to see it. You work
for "the man", or you work for the state. You sell yourself to the
highest bidder. You are in debt up to your eyeballs and have to sell
yourself to survive. Yes, that is what slavery is all about. Did
slaves make money on the side? yes, but they were still slaves. Did
some slaves buy their freedom? Yes.

Does slavery have a bad side? Yes, forced bondage, stealing of people
just like today, and selling them to others. Mistreatment via under
feeding, poor housing, no breaks, work someone to death, etc.

So stop being so ridiculous.

Would you rather see people and families starve to death then to sell
their services to others for a time, or lifetime?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Lucifer
2020-02-28 21:15:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:02:34 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
Not in the least.
Hear me out.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
What history, it is not to be found.
There was a time when slavery was considered acceptable.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
No doubt the bible you wrote says that.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not............
Post by Robert
This is for all the non thinkers, and those that are slow off
understanding.
There is a type of servitude/slavery that is acceptable, and a type
that is not.
At no time does God condemn slavery although He appears to know
it is wrong.

Exodus 20:2
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out
of the house of slavery.
Post by Robert
Most of you all are in servitude but are too slow to see it. You work
for "the man", or you work for the state. You sell yourself to the
highest bidder. You are in debt up to your eyeballs and have to sell
yourself to survive. Yes, that is what slavery is all about. Did
slaves make money on the side? yes, but they were still slaves. Did
some slaves buy their freedom? Yes.
Does slavery have a bad side? Yes, forced bondage, stealing of people
just like today, and selling them to others. Mistreatment via under
feeding, poor housing, no breaks, work someone to death, etc.
So stop being so ridiculous.
Do you think God is being ridiculous by allowing such a system?
Post by Robert
Would you rather see people and families starve to death then to sell
their services to others for a time, or lifetime?
Are you suggesting slavery must be acceptable because God does not
condemn it? God is stuck with the poor moral standards we had back
when He was created because He "changes not."

I think your moral standards are far higher than you make out.
Ted
2020-02-29 00:52:05 UTC
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On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:15:49 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:02:34 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
Not in the least.
Hear me out.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
What history, it is not to be found.
There was a time when slavery was considered acceptable.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
No doubt the bible you wrote says that.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not............
Post by Robert
This is for all the non thinkers, and those that are slow off
understanding.
There is a type of servitude/slavery that is acceptable, and a type
that is not.
At no time does God condemn slavery although He appears to know
it is wrong.
Exodus 20:2
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out
of the house of slavery.
Post by Robert
Most of you all are in servitude but are too slow to see it. You work
for "the man", or you work for the state. You sell yourself to the
highest bidder. You are in debt up to your eyeballs and have to sell
yourself to survive. Yes, that is what slavery is all about. Did
slaves make money on the side? yes, but they were still slaves. Did
some slaves buy their freedom? Yes.
Does slavery have a bad side? Yes, forced bondage, stealing of people
just like today, and selling them to others. Mistreatment via under
feeding, poor housing, no breaks, work someone to death, etc.
So stop being so ridiculous.
Do you think God is being ridiculous by allowing such a system?
Post by Robert
Would you rather see people and families starve to death then to sell
their services to others for a time, or lifetime?
Are you suggesting slavery must be acceptable because God does not
condemn it? God is stuck with the poor moral standards we had back
when He was created because He "changes not."
I think your moral standards are far higher than you make out.
Good points.
Robert
2020-02-29 03:50:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:15:49 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:02:34 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
Not in the least.
Hear me out.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
What history, it is not to be found.
There was a time when slavery was considered acceptable.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
No doubt the bible you wrote says that.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not............
Post by Robert
This is for all the non thinkers, and those that are slow off
understanding.
There is a type of servitude/slavery that is acceptable, and a type
that is not.
At no time does God condemn slavery although He appears to know
it is wrong.
Exodus 20:2
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out
of the house of slavery.
Post by Robert
Most of you all are in servitude but are too slow to see it. You work
for "the man", or you work for the state. You sell yourself to the
highest bidder. You are in debt up to your eyeballs and have to sell
yourself to survive. Yes, that is what slavery is all about. Did
slaves make money on the side? yes, but they were still slaves. Did
some slaves buy their freedom? Yes.
Does slavery have a bad side? Yes, forced bondage, stealing of people
just like today, and selling them to others. Mistreatment via under
feeding, poor housing, no breaks, work someone to death, etc.
So stop being so ridiculous.
Do you think God is being ridiculous by allowing such a system?
It was mans choice to make, good or bad. Do you really want someone
controlling your life unwillingly?
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
Would you rather see people and families starve to death then to sell
their services to others for a time, or lifetime?
Are you suggesting slavery must be acceptable because God does not
condemn it? God is stuck with the poor moral standards we had back
when He was created because He "changes not."
You are enslaved, how do you feel about it?
Post by Lucifer
I think your moral standards are far higher than you make out.
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Lucifer
2020-02-29 06:04:14 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ted
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:15:49 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:02:34 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:12:01 +1100, Lucifer
He provided rules regarding it as men were servants of others, which
is what Slavery is.
My theory is that slavery was acceptable at the time God was created
and the bible does say God is incapable of learning so God still
approves of slavery.
Does that sound feasible?
Not in the least.
Hear me out.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
You are probably wondering how I came up with my theory.
It fits your method of discovery.
History tells us slavery was OK at the time God was created.
What history, it is not to be found.
There was a time when slavery was considered acceptable.
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
The bible tells us God is incapable of learning.
No doubt the bible you wrote says that.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not............
Your comment?
Post by Ted
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
This is for all the non thinkers, and those that are slow off
understanding.
There is a type of servitude/slavery that is acceptable, and a type
that is not.
At no time does God condemn slavery although He appears to know
it is wrong.
Exodus 20:2
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out
of the house of slavery.
Post by Robert
Most of you all are in servitude but are too slow to see it. You work
for "the man", or you work for the state. You sell yourself to the
highest bidder. You are in debt up to your eyeballs and have to sell
yourself to survive. Yes, that is what slavery is all about. Did
slaves make money on the side? yes, but they were still slaves. Did
some slaves buy their freedom? Yes.
Does slavery have a bad side? Yes, forced bondage, stealing of people
just like today, and selling them to others. Mistreatment via under
feeding, poor housing, no breaks, work someone to death, etc.
So stop being so ridiculous.
Do you think God is being ridiculous by allowing such a system?
It was mans choice to make, good or bad.
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Post by Ted
Do you really want someone controlling your life unwillingly?
No I don't. Can you ask God to stop?

Would you like to have free choice between many good things?
Post by Ted
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
Would you rather see people and families starve to death then to sell
their services to others for a time, or lifetime?
Are you suggesting slavery must be acceptable because God does not
condemn it? God is stuck with the poor moral standards we had back
when He was created because He "changes not."
You are enslaved, how do you feel about it?
The system is as good as it can be with God's stupid design.

Your mind is enslaved, how do you feel about it?

I think your moral standards are far higher than you make out.
Robert
2020-02-29 09:06:38 UTC
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On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Lucifer
2020-02-29 12:49:16 UTC
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Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
The Doctor
2020-02-29 16:13:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Blind assertions are useful for fools, and swaying them. -unknown
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-29 16:27:14 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
Actually, the eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned are described by what is
written at Jeremiah 17:5.

In the interim, I am simply wonderfully hungry (
http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) and again hope you, TD, also have a
healthy appetite too.

So again, how are you ?









...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,

HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Lucifer
2020-02-29 20:50:17 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
If I was really Lucifer I would be fighting God for the good of
humanity. I got the name from Lucifer the TV series.
Patrick B
2020-02-29 23:05:20 UTC
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 07:50:17 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by The Doctor
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
If I was really Lucifer I would be fighting God for the good of
humanity. I got the name from Lucifer the TV series.
Do you mean you aren't really Lucifer?
Next you'll tell me that the TV show "God friended me" is a fake.
Lucifer
2020-03-01 01:53:39 UTC
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Post by Patrick B
On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 07:50:17 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by The Doctor
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
If I was really Lucifer I would be fighting God for the good of
humanity. I got the name from Lucifer the TV series.
Do you mean you aren't really Lucifer?
Yes. :-(
I play the part of Lucifer in the TV series alt.atheism.
Post by Patrick B
Next you'll tell me that the TV show "God friended me" is a fake.
I'm not changing my name to "God friended me".
Patrick B
2020-03-01 13:23:56 UTC
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 12:53:39 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by Patrick B
On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 07:50:17 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Post by The Doctor
Post by Lucifer
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:04:14 +1100, Lucifer
Post by Lucifer
Do you think God was being ridiculous by creating man that way
and abandoning control?
Is a parent foolish to allow their children to follow their noses?
I take your point. Why do yo follow a God you believe to be foolish?
Excuse us, but you are described In Isaiah 14:12 !
If I was really Lucifer I would be fighting God for the good of
humanity. I got the name from Lucifer the TV series.
Do you mean you aren't really Lucifer?
Yes. :-(
I play the part of Lucifer in the TV series alt.atheism.
Post by Patrick B
Next you'll tell me that the TV show "God friended me" is a fake.
I'm not changing my name to "God friended me".
RATS.
OK then.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-28 09:15:22 UTC
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** (fChrist) 02/28/20 "Lucifer" tragically vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-28 22:33:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 02/28/20 "Lucifer" haplessly vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-29 13:04:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 02/29/20 "Lucifer" tragically vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-29 21:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 02/29/20 "Lucifer" haplessly vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-01 02:39:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 02/29/20 "Lucifer" mindlessly vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-01 06:46:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 03/01/20 "Lucifer" tragically vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-02 10:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 03/02/20 "Lucifer" tragically vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-02 21:57:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
** (fChrist) 03/02/20 "Lucifer" haplessly vainjangling (1 Tim 1:6)
...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/sIUAMh1z0_U/g95u5pkmBQAJ

Link to post explicating vainjangling by the eternally condemned:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/-xLGqnNjAAAJ

"Like a moth to flame, the eternally condemned tragically return to be
ever more cursed by GOD."

Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at the continued fulfillment
of this prophecy as clearly demonstrated within the following USENET
threads:

(1) Link to thread titled "LORD Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our #1
Example of being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI%5B1-25%5D

(2) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M

(3) Link to thread titled "A very very very simple definition of sin;"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/xunFWhan_AM

(4) Link to thread titled "The LORD says 'Blessed are you who hunger
now;'"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM

(5) Link to thread titled "Being wonderfully hungry like LORD Jesus;"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/xPY1Uzl-ZNk/QeKLDNCpCwAJ

... for the continued benefit (Romans 8:28) of those of us who are
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry like GOD ( http://bit.ly/Lk2442 )
with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to the LORD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/pIZcsOCJBwAJ

Laus DEO !

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Bottom line:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/O23NguTslhI/h5lE-mr0DAAJ

<begin trichotomy>

(1) Born-again (John 3:3 & 5) humans - Folks who have GOD's Help (i.e.
Holy Spirit) to stop (John 5:14) sinning by being
http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungry (Philippians 4:12) **but** are still
able to choose via their own "free will" to be instead
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) trapped in the
entangling (Hebrews 12:1) deadly (i.e. killed immortals Adam&Eve) sin
of gluttony (Proverbs 23:2).

(2) Eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) humans - Folks who will never have
GOD's Help (i.e. Holy Spirit) to stop being
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) as evident by their
constant vainjangling (1 Timothy 1:6) about everything except how to
stop (John 5:14) sinning.

(3) Perishing humans - The remaining folks who may possibly (Matthew
19:26) become born-again (John 3:3 & 5) as new (2 Corinthians 5:17)
creatures in Christ.

<end trichotomy>

Suggested further reading:
http://T3WiJ.com

+++
Subject: The LORD says "Blessed are you who hunger now ..."
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/e4sW8dr44rM/NSkTJxvFBAAJ
Shame on andrew, look at his red face.
LIE.

The color of my face in **not** visible here on USENET nor is the
color of my face red for those who can see me.
'14 Bible verses about Spiritual Hunger'
Such are the lies coming from the lying pens of the
http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (Genesis 25:32) commentators.

That which is "spiritual" is independent of time so that there
would've been no reference to "now."

Therefore, the LORD is referring to physical hunger here instead of
the spiritual "hunger and thirst for righteousness" elsewhere in
Scripture.

Indeed, physical hunger can **not** coexist with physical thirst
because the latter results in the loss of saliva needed for physical
hunger.

It is when we hunger for food "now" (Luke 6:21a) that we are able to
eat food "now."

No such time constraints exist for "spiritual hunger."

Moreover, the perspective of Luke 6:21a through the eyes of a
physician (i.e. Dr. Luke) would be logically expected to be physical
instead of spiritual.

All glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD for His compelling you to
unwittingly demonstrate your ever worsening cognitive condition which
is tragically a consequence of His cursing (Jeremiah 17:5) you more
than ever.

Laus DEO !

+++

someone eternally condemned & ever more cursed by GOD perseverated:
(in a vain attempt to refute posts about being wonderfully hungry)
Psalms
open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Indeed, receiving a mouthful (Psalm 81:10) of manna from GOD will only
make His http://HeartMDPhD.com/Redeemed want even more, so that we're
even http://bit.ly/wonderfully_hungrier with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD.

Laus DEO !
Proverbs
13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite, But the stomach of
the wicked is in need.
Indeed, the righteous know to be satisfied (Luke 6:21a) with an omer
(Exodus 16:16) of manna, while the wicked need (Proverbs 13:25) this
knowledge as evident by their eating until they are full (i.e.
satiated).
Joel
2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of
the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my
people shall never be ashamed.
Indeed, an omer (32 ounces per Revelation 6:6) of manna is plenty
(Joel 2:26) with all glory ( http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD and to
the shame of you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned.

Laus DEO ! !
Psalms
107 For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
Indeed, being filled (Psalm 107:9) with an omer (Exodus 16:16) of
manna is a Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6) thing while being satiated (i.e.
full) is evil.
Acts
14:17 "Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by
giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying
your hearts with food and gladness."
In the interim, you, who are eternally (Mark 3:29) condemned, will
never be satisfied (Acts 14:17) because you are ever more cursed
(Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD.

Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/uCPb3ldOv5M/KgM8NFKuAQAJ

+++
Subject: a very very very simple definition of sin ...
Source:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.med.cardiology/mXmFD9kIocc/y8GNXircBQAJ
Actually, sin is **not** defined in 1 John 1:8-10
John wrote this to christians. The greek grammer (sic) speaks of an ongoing
status. He includes himself in that status.
John was a Jew instead of a Greek so there is really no reason to
think that Greek grammar is relevant here.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is
not in us.
John also wrote earlier at John 5:14 that LORD Jesus commands:

"Now stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." (John 5:14)

And, indeed, your being eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) & ever more
cursed (Jeremiah 17:5) by GOD, as evident by your ever worsening
cognitive deficits, is really worse.

Now again, here's how to really stop sinning as LORD Jesus commands
(John 5:14):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/2-Qpn-o81J4/ldGubKEZAgAJ

While wonderfully hungry ( http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) in the Holy
Spirit, Who causes (Deuteronomy 8:3) me to hunger right now (Luke
6:21a), I again pray (2 Chronicles 7:14) that GOD continues to curse
(Jeremiah 17:5) you, who are eternally condemned (Mark 3:29), more
than ever in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.

Laus DEO ! ! !

Again, this is done in hopes of convincing all reading this to stop
being http://bit.ly/terribly_hungry (2 Kings 6:29) where all are in
danger of becoming eternally condemned (Mark 3:29) just as had
happened to Ananias and Sapphira and more contemporaneously to Bob
Pastorio.

Again, the LORD did strike down http://bit.ly/Bob_Pastorio on Fool's
day just 9+ years ago:

http://bobs-amanuensis.livejournal.com/8728.html

Again, this is done ...

http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewToutsHunger (Luke 6:21a) with all glory (
http://bit.ly/Psalm117_ ) to GOD, Who causes us to hunger (Deuteronomy
8:3) when He blesses us right now (Luke 6:21a) thereby removing the
http://bit.ly/HeartVAT from around the heart

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,


HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Mitchell Holman
2020-02-28 14:23:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:21:47 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:01:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
By whose definition?
I showed you the outline of what God said about it so how can you
claim them as "innocent"?
All children are born innocent, but your
god is punishing them for the sins of others.
First off because of Adam all men must die. It was a result of his
sin
in which he followed Satan not God.
Children are spiritually of age when they commit their first
recognizable sin. Sin to them. Before that time they are subject to
their parents.
Here is a real scenario, not common world wide at the time but true
nonetheless. Parents sacrificed their infants and children to the
god,
Moloch (sp) when his stature was heated red hot they tossed their
kids
alive into his statue. (their god) Would it no be better for the
children to die early?
And in Sodom, etc. They had every venereal disease known to mankind
and some not known. They would have all those diseases and be raped,
etc. at the will of those around them. Such was their nature.
None of that changes the fact that
innocents are being made to suffer. That
is no justice at all, much less "divine
justice".
Which also points out the fact that you accept that some "God" did
this to "innocents". Therefore a belief in his existence.
Those of the heathens I could not say for sure. Over the
age
of
two
they were considered as their parents, under the age of two
most
likely God would take care of them.
I hated that cheap equivocation when
"aaa" posted it. "So what if God kills babies,
he will take care of them in heaven".
Well, to me is not a "so what" thing, especially because in
the
OT
there were, if I recall properly, a time or two where
everyone
was
killed including the babies.
A time or two? The OT is FULL of god killing
the innocent, from Ye Floode to the first born
children of Israel to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You over emphasize that, to the extreme. You are also unjust
towards
the God of the Bible as he gives the people fair warning of
impending
doom to come if they do not chose to correct their actions.
Huh? God CLEARLY punishes and even
kills innocent people and you accuse ME
of being "unjust"?
You have yet to support your views.
I have repeatedly shown you the guilt of those killed. In various
ways. Now you can judge God in any way you wish, but not
according
to
what is written in the Bible.
What was the guilt of the firstborn
children of Egypt, not to mention all the
firstborn livestock? What had they done
so wrong that they deserved to die for it?
God haters, and as to the live stock it all belonged to God haters.
Huh?
Show us a passage where the first-born
children are "god-haters".
Phrased incorrectly, or improperly as well as distorted from what is
being talked about.
Another case of innocents being made to suffer.
I hate to keep saying this, Innocent or not, what is your basis for
that judgment?
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
Did not all of Egypt enslave the peoples of God?
I don't see any proof of that.
Did they not order
the killing of the Israeli children "at birth"?
Did they? Show us the Bible reference.
Do YOU "speak for god"?
On occasion, and I also speak as a witness of Him.
If god wants to speak on his own behalf
I am sure he can do it without your help.
He sure can, he can even cause the rocks to cry out his name.
There is no evidence the poor guy
picking up sticks would not have asked
for forgiveness. The village elders were
deciding what kind of trial to give him
when God interrupts and demands his
immediate execution.
There is also no witness stating either way.
They also sought God for the answer, he didn't interrupt.
Where was HIS interest in forgiveness?
There are certain laws which had required the death penalty,
period.
What law, and how was he supposed to know it?
The laws, the Mosaic Laws that we were speaking of had just been
passed and voted on by all the people. He was there when the laws
were
being read aloud for all to know. He was without excuse.
1) We don't know that. He never got a
trial, was never allowed to tell his side.
2) We don't even know that he was Hebrew.
The Hebrews were travelling and encounted
"a man". No one knew him, he is not identified
by name or tribe, so he clearly WASN'T aware
of Mosaic Laws. Should people be executed
for violating another religion's laws?
3) The only person who wanted him killed
was God - so why didn't God kill him?
And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of
Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the
people were in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance, then
he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And
the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one law
for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born
among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth
among them. (Num 15:26-29 KJV)
The priests who were the judges were to know all the law and follow it
to the nth degree. This would mean finding out whether the above is
true, or not. And to Follow it accordingly.
Here directly below the above is the flip side of that understanding
and it too was to be followed to the nth degree.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the
word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall
utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Num 15:30-31 KJV)
There were certain cases in the desert where some sought to usurp the
will of God and created evil by the opposition within the encampment
of the Israelites. God gave them all warning to separate themselves
from these people and all that they owned. Then the earth opened up
and swallowed them whole. So yes, there was occasion for God's
judgment but he always gives fair notice and an opportunity to repent
aforehand.
The Sabbath breaker
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Bingo. "A man". Obviously NOT a fellow
Hebrew since no one recognized him.

He was clearly not a Hebrew so why was
he killed for violating Hebrew laws?
And they that found him
gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the
congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared
what should be done to him.
Bingo. No trial, no chance to hear his
side, even the Hebrews were unsure what to
do with him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man
Bingo. God interrupted the process and
condemned the man to die. Just like that.
all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him
without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD
commanded Moses. (Num 15:32-36 KJV)
In other words they locked him up for determination of the sin, and
then sought the Lord as to the penalty of "knowing to do sin, direct
affront to God, and he was then stoned.
That is NOT what the passage says. The Hebrew
elders did not seek God's opinion, God ordered his
death spontaneously.

And as to why God didn't kill him but instead
demanded the "congregation" to do it for him, well.....
Robert
2020-02-28 19:15:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:23:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:21:47 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:01:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
By whose definition?
I showed you the outline of what God said about it so how can you
claim them as "innocent"?
All children are born innocent, but your
god is punishing them for the sins of others.
First off because of Adam all men must die. It was a result of his
sin
in which he followed Satan not God.
Children are spiritually of age when they commit their first
recognizable sin. Sin to them. Before that time they are subject to
their parents.
Here is a real scenario, not common world wide at the time but true
nonetheless. Parents sacrificed their infants and children to the
god,
Moloch (sp) when his stature was heated red hot they tossed their
kids
alive into his statue. (their god) Would it no be better for the
children to die early?
And in Sodom, etc. They had every venereal disease known to mankind
and some not known. They would have all those diseases and be raped,
etc. at the will of those around them. Such was their nature.
None of that changes the fact that
innocents are being made to suffer. That
is no justice at all, much less "divine
justice".
Which also points out the fact that you accept that some "God" did
this to "innocents". Therefore a belief in his existence.
Those of the heathens I could not say for sure. Over the
age
of
two
they were considered as their parents, under the age of two
most
likely God would take care of them.
I hated that cheap equivocation when
"aaa" posted it. "So what if God kills babies,
he will take care of them in heaven".
Well, to me is not a "so what" thing, especially because in
the
OT
there were, if I recall properly, a time or two where
everyone
was
killed including the babies.
A time or two? The OT is FULL of god killing
the innocent, from Ye Floode to the first born
children of Israel to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You over emphasize that, to the extreme. You are also unjust
towards
the God of the Bible as he gives the people fair warning of
impending
doom to come if they do not chose to correct their actions.
Huh? God CLEARLY punishes and even
kills innocent people and you accuse ME
of being "unjust"?
You have yet to support your views.
I have repeatedly shown you the guilt of those killed. In various
ways. Now you can judge God in any way you wish, but not
according
to
what is written in the Bible.
What was the guilt of the firstborn
children of Egypt, not to mention all the
firstborn livestock? What had they done
so wrong that they deserved to die for it?
God haters, and as to the live stock it all belonged to God haters.
Huh?
Show us a passage where the first-born
children are "god-haters".
Phrased incorrectly, or improperly as well as distorted from what is
being talked about.
Another case of innocents being made to suffer.
I hate to keep saying this, Innocent or not, what is your basis for
that judgment?
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
In the USA, supposedly. but still they are locked up while presumably
they are innocent.

But you are talking about people already judged, and you were not
privy to their hearings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did not all of Egypt enslave the peoples of God?
I don't see any proof of that.
To many people it is common knowledge, the Egyptians enslaved the
Israelites. Even after God had rescued the Egyptians from mass
starvation and kept their economy strong.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did they not order
the killing of the Israeli children "at birth"?
Did they? Show us the Bible reference.
Exo 1:15  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which
the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 
Exo 1:16  And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the
Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye
shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 
Exo 1:17  But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of
Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. 
Exo 1:18  And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto
them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children
alive? 
Exo 1:19  And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women
are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered
ere the midwives come in unto them. 
Exo 1:20  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people
multiplied, and waxed very mighty. 
Exo 1:21  And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that
he made them houses. 
Exo 1:22  And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that
is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save
alive. 
Post by Mitchell Holman
Do YOU "speak for god"?
On occasion, and I also speak as a witness of Him.
If god wants to speak on his own behalf
I am sure he can do it without your help.
He sure can, he can even cause the rocks to cry out his name.
There is no evidence the poor guy
picking up sticks would not have asked
for forgiveness. The village elders were
deciding what kind of trial to give him
when God interrupts and demands his
immediate execution.
There is also no witness stating either way.
They also sought God for the answer, he didn't interrupt.
Where was HIS interest in forgiveness?
There are certain laws which had required the death penalty,
period.
What law, and how was he supposed to know it?
The laws, the Mosaic Laws that we were speaking of had just been
passed and voted on by all the people. He was there when the laws
were
being read aloud for all to know. He was without excuse.
1) We don't know that. He never got a
trial, was never allowed to tell his side.
2) We don't even know that he was Hebrew.
The Hebrews were travelling and encounted
"a man". No one knew him, he is not identified
by name or tribe, so he clearly WASN'T aware
of Mosaic Laws. Should people be executed
for violating another religion's laws?
3) The only person who wanted him killed
was God - so why didn't God kill him?
And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of
Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the
people were in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance, then
he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And
the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one law
for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born
among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth
among them. (Num 15:26-29 KJV)
The priests who were the judges were to know all the law and follow it
to the nth degree. This would mean finding out whether the above is
true, or not. And to Follow it accordingly.
Here directly below the above is the flip side of that understanding
and it too was to be followed to the nth degree.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the
word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall
utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Num 15:30-31 KJV)
There were certain cases in the desert where some sought to usurp the
will of God and created evil by the opposition within the encampment
of the Israelites. God gave them all warning to separate themselves
from these people and all that they owned. Then the earth opened up
and swallowed them whole. So yes, there was occasion for God's
judgment but he always gives fair notice and an opportunity to repent
aforehand.
The Sabbath breaker
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Bingo. "A man". Obviously NOT a fellow
Hebrew since no one recognized him.
He was clearly not a Hebrew so why was
he killed for violating Hebrew laws?
You do not know that he was not a Hebrew.
Secondly, had you paid attention to the scripture above it speaks to
the "sojourner" in the land. It spoke of those people, the people that
may have been ignorant, etc. It appears to me that all the bases were
covered as to grace and judgment.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And they that found him
gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the
congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared
what should be done to him.
Bingo. No trial, no chance to hear his
side, even the Hebrews were unsure what to
do with him.
Really? Then why the "ward"? Again I refer you to the scripture above
and how the law was to be followed. If they did not follow the law and
adhere to all of it, including the actions of proper judgment they
those that did so would be held accountable, and if the Judges were
priests they would be held to a higher standard of judgment as a
representative of God.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man
Bingo. God interrupted the process and
condemned the man to die. Just like that.
Show where he "interrupted"? You have repeated that several times,
without proof. Without understanding the Law, the application of the
Law, and who was under those laws and who was not.

Is it that you are bound by your agenda and have to room to understand
the norms of the day?
Post by Mitchell Holman
all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him
without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD
commanded Moses. (Num 15:32-36 KJV)
In other words they locked him up for determination of the sin, and
then sought the Lord as to the penalty of "knowing to do sin, direct
affront to God, and he was then stoned.
That is NOT what the passage says. The Hebrew
elders did not seek God's opinion, God ordered his
death spontaneously.
And as to why God didn't kill him but instead
demanded the "congregation" to do it for him, well.....
"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put
to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp." (Num 15:34-35 KJV)

Seems obvious to me that they were seeking directions.

It was their responsibility, it also shows people that it isn't an
easy thing to do and so they won't take death of others lightly,
If God did it they wouldn't learn and understand and would do like
most people think to do in their anger and say "GD" someone at the
drop of a hat.

Why do you think that the first ones to throw stones are those that
are the closest to the person?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-02-29 14:26:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:23:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:21:47 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:01:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
By whose definition?
I showed you the outline of what God said about it so how can you
claim them as "innocent"?
All children are born innocent, but your
god is punishing them for the sins of others.
First off because of Adam all men must die. It was a result of his
sin
in which he followed Satan not God.
Children are spiritually of age when they commit their first
recognizable sin. Sin to them. Before that time they are subject to
their parents.
Here is a real scenario, not common world wide at the time but true
nonetheless. Parents sacrificed their infants and children to the
god,
Moloch (sp) when his stature was heated red hot they tossed their
kids
alive into his statue. (their god) Would it no be better for the
children to die early?
And in Sodom, etc. They had every venereal disease known to mankind
and some not known. They would have all those diseases and be raped,
etc. at the will of those around them. Such was their nature.
None of that changes the fact that
innocents are being made to suffer. That
is no justice at all, much less "divine
justice".
Which also points out the fact that you accept that some "God" did
this to "innocents". Therefore a belief in his existence.
Those of the heathens I could not say for sure. Over the
age
of
two
they were considered as their parents, under the age of
two
Post by Mitchell Holman
most
likely God would take care of them.
I hated that cheap equivocation when
"aaa" posted it. "So what if God kills babies,
he will take care of them in heaven".
Well, to me is not a "so what" thing, especially because in
the
OT
there were, if I recall properly, a time or two where
everyone
was
killed including the babies.
A time or two? The OT is FULL of god killing
the innocent, from Ye Floode to the first born
children of Israel to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You over emphasize that, to the extreme. You are also unjust
towards
the God of the Bible as he gives the people fair warning of
impending
doom to come if they do not chose to correct their actions.
Huh? God CLEARLY punishes and even
kills innocent people and you accuse ME
of being "unjust"?
You have yet to support your views.
I have repeatedly shown you the guilt of those killed. In
various
Post by Mitchell Holman
ways. Now you can judge God in any way you wish, but not
according
to
what is written in the Bible.
What was the guilt of the firstborn
children of Egypt, not to mention all the
firstborn livestock? What had they done
so wrong that they deserved to die for it?
God haters, and as to the live stock it all belonged to God
haters.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Huh?
Show us a passage where the first-born
children are "god-haters".
Phrased incorrectly, or improperly as well as distorted from what is
being talked about.
Another case of innocents being made to suffer.
I hate to keep saying this, Innocent or not, what is your basis for
that judgment?
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
In the USA, supposedly. but still they are locked up while presumably
they are innocent.
But you are talking about people already judged, and you were not
privy to their hearings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did not all of Egypt enslave the peoples of God?
I don't see any proof of that.
To many people it is common knowledge, the Egyptians enslaved the
Israelites.
Where does the Bible claim all of
Egypt enslaved the Hebrews?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did they not order
the killing of the Israeli children "at birth"?
Did they? Show us the Bible reference.
Exo 1:15  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which
the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 
Exo 1:16  And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the
Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye
shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 
Exo 1:17  But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of
Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. 
Exo 1:18  And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto
them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children
alive? 
Exo 1:19  And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women
are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered
ere the midwives come in unto them. 
Exo 1:20  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people
multiplied, and waxed very mighty. 
Exo 1:21  And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that
he made them houses. 
Exo 1:22  And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that
is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save
alive. 
Bingo. Those are the actions of the
Pharaoh, not all of Egypt.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
There are certain laws which had required the death penalty,
period.
What law, and how was he supposed to know it?
The laws, the Mosaic Laws that we were speaking of had just been
passed and voted on by all the people. He was there when the laws
were
being read aloud for all to know. He was without excuse.
1) We don't know that. He never got a
trial, was never allowed to tell his side.
2) We don't even know that he was Hebrew.
The Hebrews were travelling and encounted
"a man". No one knew him, he is not identified
by name or tribe, so he clearly WASN'T aware
of Mosaic Laws. Should people be executed
for violating another religion's laws?
3) The only person who wanted him killed
was God - so why didn't God kill him?
And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of
Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the
people were in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance, then
he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And
the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one law
for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born
among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth
among them. (Num 15:26-29 KJV)
The priests who were the judges were to know all the law and follow it
to the nth degree. This would mean finding out whether the above is
true, or not. And to Follow it accordingly.
Here directly below the above is the flip side of that understanding
and it too was to be followed to the nth degree.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the
word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall
utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Num 15:30-31 KJV)
There were certain cases in the desert where some sought to usurp the
will of God and created evil by the opposition within the encampment
of the Israelites. God gave them all warning to separate themselves
from these people and all that they owned. Then the earth opened up
and swallowed them whole. So yes, there was occasion for God's
judgment but he always gives fair notice and an opportunity to repent
aforehand.
The Sabbath breaker
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Bingo. "A man". Obviously NOT a fellow
Hebrew since no one recognized him.
He was clearly not a Hebrew so why was
he killed for violating Hebrew laws?
You do not know that he was not a Hebrew.
His anonimity is proof of that.
Post by Robert
Secondly, had you paid attention to the scripture above it speaks to
the "sojourner" in the land. It spoke of those people, the people that
may have been ignorant, etc. It appears to me that all the bases were
covered as to grace and judgment.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And they that found him
gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the
congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared
what should be done to him.
Bingo. No trial, no chance to hear his
side, even the Hebrews were unsure what to
do with him.
Really? Then why the "ward"?
Just the point. If he was a Hebrew there
would no need to keep him under guard, they
would know who he is and where to find him.
Only a stranger would need to be guarded like
that.

He was not a Hebrew but he is being
killed for violation a Hebrew law.
Post by Robert
Again I refer you to the scripture above
and how the law was to be followed. If they did not follow the law and
adhere to all of it, including the actions of proper judgment they
those that did so would be held accountable, and if the Judges were
priests they would be held to a higher standard of judgment as a
representative of God.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man
Bingo. God interrupted the process and
condemned the man to die. Just like that.
Show where he "interrupted"?
The passage shows the elders pondering
what to do with him when God jumps into
the discussion with his order of execution.
Who asked God for his opinion?
Post by Robert
You have repeated that several times,
without proof. Without understanding the Law, the application of the
Law, and who was under those laws and who was not.
Is it that you are bound by your agenda and have to room to understand
the norms of the day?
That is just the point. The "norms
of the day" were barbaric and need to be
condemned as such.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him
without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD
commanded Moses. (Num 15:32-36 KJV)
In other words they locked him up for determination of the sin, and
then sought the Lord as to the penalty of "knowing to do sin, direct
affront to God, and he was then stoned.
That is NOT what the passage says. The Hebrew
elders did not seek God's opinion, God ordered his
death spontaneously.
And as to why God didn't kill him but instead
demanded the "congregation" to do it for him, well.....
"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put
to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp." (Num 15:34-35 KJV)
Like I said, no one asked god's opinion,
he just interrupts with his condemnation.
Post by Robert
Seems obvious to me that they were seeking directions.
It was their responsibility, it also shows people that it isn't an
easy thing to do and so they won't take death of others lightly,
If God did it they wouldn't learn and understand and would do like
most people think to do in their anger and say "GD" someone at the
drop of a hat.
Why do you think that the first ones to throw stones are those that
are the closest to the person?
Since God alone wanted him dead why didn't
God just snap his fingers and cause him to die?
Why demand that others carry out his judgement?
Patrick B
2020-02-29 16:22:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
To many people it is common knowledge, the Egyptians enslaved the
Israelites.
Where does the Bible claim all of
Egypt enslaved the Hebrews?
Another troll.... trolling the troll.
Robert
2020-03-02 06:54:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:26:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:23:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:21:47 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:01:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
By whose definition?
I showed you the outline of what God said about it so how can you
claim them as "innocent"?
All children are born innocent, but your
god is punishing them for the sins of others.
First off because of Adam all men must die. It was a result of his
sin
in which he followed Satan not God.
Children are spiritually of age when they commit their first
recognizable sin. Sin to them. Before that time they are subject to
their parents.
Here is a real scenario, not common world wide at the time but true
nonetheless. Parents sacrificed their infants and children to the
god,
Moloch (sp) when his stature was heated red hot they tossed their
kids
alive into his statue. (their god) Would it no be better for the
children to die early?
And in Sodom, etc. They had every venereal disease known to mankind
and some not known. They would have all those diseases and be
raped,
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
etc. at the will of those around them. Such was their nature.
None of that changes the fact that
innocents are being made to suffer. That
is no justice at all, much less "divine
justice".
Which also points out the fact that you accept that some "God"
did
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
this to "innocents". Therefore a belief in his existence.
Those of the heathens I could not say for sure. Over the
age
of
two
they were considered as their parents, under the age of
two
Post by Mitchell Holman
most
likely God would take care of them.
I hated that cheap equivocation when
"aaa" posted it. "So what if God kills babies,
he will take care of them in heaven".
Well, to me is not a "so what" thing, especially because in
the
OT
there were, if I recall properly, a time or two where
everyone
was
killed including the babies.
A time or two? The OT is FULL of god killing
the innocent, from Ye Floode to the first born
children of Israel to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You over emphasize that, to the extreme. You are also unjust
towards
the God of the Bible as he gives the people fair warning of
impending
doom to come if they do not chose to correct their actions.
Huh? God CLEARLY punishes and even
kills innocent people and you accuse ME
of being "unjust"?
You have yet to support your views.
I have repeatedly shown you the guilt of those killed. In
various
Post by Mitchell Holman
ways. Now you can judge God in any way you wish, but not
according
to
what is written in the Bible.
What was the guilt of the firstborn
children of Egypt, not to mention all the
firstborn livestock? What had they done
so wrong that they deserved to die for it?
God haters, and as to the live stock it all belonged to God
haters.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Huh?
Show us a passage where the first-born
children are "god-haters".
Phrased incorrectly, or improperly as well as distorted from what
is
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
being talked about.
Another case of innocents being made to suffer.
I hate to keep saying this, Innocent or not, what is your basis for
that judgment?
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
In the USA, supposedly. but still they are locked up while presumably
they are innocent.
But you are talking about people already judged, and you were not
privy to their hearings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did not all of Egypt enslave the peoples of God?
I don't see any proof of that.
To many people it is common knowledge, the Egyptians enslaved the
Israelites.
Where does the Bible claim all of
Egypt enslaved the Hebrews?
While I did not say each and everyone, you did tighten the bar and
raise it, but here is the story.

Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. And he
said to his people, "Look, the people of the children of Israel are
more and mightier than we; come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest
they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join
our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land."
Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their
burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses.
But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew.
And they were in dread of the children of Israel. So the Egyptians
made the children of Israel serve with rigor. And they made their
lives bitter with hard bondage—in mortar, in brick, and in all manner
of service in the field. All their service in which they made them
serve was with rigor. (Exo 1:8-14 NKJV)

Done as a nation.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did they not order
the killing of the Israeli children "at birth"?
Did they? Show us the Bible reference.
Exo 1:15  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which
the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 
Exo 1:16  And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the
Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye
shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 
Exo 1:17  But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of
Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. 
Exo 1:18  And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto
them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children
alive? 
Exo 1:19  And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women
are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered
ere the midwives come in unto them. 
Exo 1:20  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people
multiplied, and waxed very mighty. 
Exo 1:21  And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that
he made them houses. 
Exo 1:22  And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that
is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save
alive. 
Bingo. Those are the actions of the
Pharaoh, not all of Egypt.
Bingo? Did you bother to actually read it?
Exo 1:22  So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who
is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall
save alive." 

Now, who did the dirty deed, the Pharaoh? And let us not forget the
midwives spoke of earlier.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
There are certain laws which had required the death penalty,
period.
What law, and how was he supposed to know it?
The laws, the Mosaic Laws that we were speaking of had just been
passed and voted on by all the people. He was there when the laws
were
being read aloud for all to know. He was without excuse.
1) We don't know that. He never got a
trial, was never allowed to tell his side.
2) We don't even know that he was Hebrew.
The Hebrews were travelling and encounted
"a man". No one knew him, he is not identified
by name or tribe, so he clearly WASN'T aware
of Mosaic Laws. Should people be executed
for violating another religion's laws?
3) The only person who wanted him killed
was God - so why didn't God kill him?
And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of
Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the
people were in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance, then
he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And
the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one
law
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born
among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth
among them. (Num 15:26-29 KJV)
The priests who were the judges were to know all the law and follow
it
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
to the nth degree. This would mean finding out whether the above is
true, or not. And to Follow it accordingly.
Here directly below the above is the flip side of that understanding
and it too was to be followed to the nth degree.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the
word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall
utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Num 15:30-31
KJV)
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
There were certain cases in the desert where some sought to usurp the
will of God and created evil by the opposition within the encampment
of the Israelites. God gave them all warning to separate themselves
from these people and all that they owned. Then the earth opened up
and swallowed them whole. So yes, there was occasion for God's
judgment but he always gives fair notice and an opportunity to repent
aforehand.
The Sabbath breaker
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Bingo. "A man". Obviously NOT a fellow
Hebrew since no one recognized him.
He was clearly not a Hebrew so why was
he killed for violating Hebrew laws?
You do not know that he was not a Hebrew.
His anonimity is proof of that.
No, it isn't. Besides if you were to have read the laws regarding both
the Israeli and the foreigner in the land you would see that a fair
hearing was held for people in either situation with even more
leniency to the foreigner who knew not the laws of the land.
Post by Robert
Secondly, had you paid attention to the scripture above it speaks to
the "sojourner" in the land. It spoke of those people, the people that
may have been ignorant, etc. It appears to me that all the bases were
covered as to grace and judgment.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And they that found him
gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the
congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared
what should be done to him.
Bingo. No trial, no chance to hear his
side, even the Hebrews were unsure what to
do with him.
Really? Then why the "ward"?
Just the point. If he was a Hebrew there
would no need to keep him under guard, they
would know who he is and where to find him.
Only a stranger would need to be guarded like
that.
You make a lot of presumptions, do you not think that an Israeli would
make a run for his life? As to Guarded? in a "Ward" not a jail or
prison?
He was not a Hebrew but he is being
killed for violation a Hebrew law.
As the law applied to the "sojourners" through the land, and if they
were ignorant of the law there was provisions for a clemency as you
read about earlier, then why keep harping on your agenda instead of
following the facts of the day?
Post by Robert
Again I refer you to the scripture above
and how the law was to be followed. If they did not follow the law and
adhere to all of it, including the actions of proper judgment they
those that did so would be held accountable, and if the Judges were
priests they would be held to a higher standard of judgment as a
representative of God.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man
Bingo. God interrupted the process and
condemned the man to die. Just like that.
Show where he "interrupted"?
The passage shows the elders pondering
what to do with him when God jumps into
the discussion with his order of execution.
Who asked God for his opinion?
Who was it that God spoke to?

Perhaps you should read that section, again.
Post by Robert
You have repeated that several times,
without proof. Without understanding the Law, the application of the
Law, and who was under those laws and who was not.
Is it that you are bound by your agenda and have to room to understand
the norms of the day?
That is just the point. The "norms
of the day" were barbaric and need to be
condemned as such.
But the "norms" you speak of do not exist, nor coincide with actions,
as has been pointed out to you from scripture, and the norms of the
heathens sacrificing their babies to molten hot idols, Plus all types
of sexual perversions and so on yet when people set themselves to
Follow God and live a moral life with legal restraints such as we used
to have up until a few yew years back and you call them barbaric?

Yes, I know you posted a link to an inconclusive report about the
questioning of the value of a death penalty, but that did not re
enforce your position as to it being barbaric.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him
without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the
LORD
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
commanded Moses. (Num 15:32-36 KJV)
In other words they locked him up for determination of the sin, and
then sought the Lord as to the penalty of "knowing to do sin, direct
affront to God, and he was then stoned.
That is NOT what the passage says. The Hebrew
elders did not seek God's opinion, God ordered his
death spontaneously.
And as to why God didn't kill him but instead
demanded the "congregation" to do it for him, well.....
"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put
to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp." (Num 15:34-35 KJV)
Like I said, no one asked god's opinion,
he just interrupts with his condemnation.
Yes, you have been quite emphatic about some supposed interruption.
Post by Robert
Seems obvious to me that they were seeking directions.
It was their responsibility, it also shows people that it isn't an
easy thing to do and so they won't take death of others lightly,
If God did it they wouldn't learn and understand and would do like
most people think to do in their anger and say "GD" someone at the
drop of a hat.
Why do you think that the first ones to throw stones are those that
are the closest to the person?
Since God alone wanted him dead why didn't
God just snap his fingers and cause him to die?
Why demand that others carry out his judgement?
It wasn't God's job to do that.
Let me ask you, if you felt someone wronged another and it bothered
you deeply so you wished death upon the sucker. And a gov't employee
jumped up said "Yes sir!" and off'd the poor sucker, compared to the
fact that it was legal of you to off the guy and it was your job to do
it. Would you feel so desirous of immediate actions when the blood
spilt was on your hands and not the hands of another?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Patrick B
2020-03-02 13:11:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
While I did not say each and everyone, you did tighten the bar and
raise it, but here is the story.
You are the "MASTER" of this procedure.
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-02 14:31:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:26:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:23:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
What was the guilt of the firstborn
children of Egypt, not to mention all the
firstborn livestock? What had they done
so wrong that they deserved to die for it?
God haters, and as to the live stock it all belonged to God
haters.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Huh?
Show us a passage where the first-born
children are "god-haters".
Phrased incorrectly, or improperly as well as distorted from what
is
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
being talked about.
Another case of innocents being made to suffer.
I hate to keep saying this, Innocent or not, what is your basis for
that judgment?
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
In the USA, supposedly. but still they are locked up while presumably
they are innocent.
But you are talking about people already judged, and you were not
privy to their hearings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did not all of Egypt enslave the peoples of God?
I don't see any proof of that.
To many people it is common knowledge, the Egyptians enslaved the
Israelites.
Where does the Bible claim all of
Egypt enslaved the Hebrews?
While I did not say each and everyone, you did tighten the bar and
raise it, but here is the story.
Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. And he
said to his people, "Look, the people of the children of Israel are
more and mightier than we; come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest
they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join
our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land."
Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their
burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses.
But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew.
And they were in dread of the children of Israel. So the Egyptians
made the children of Israel serve with rigor. And they made their
lives bitter with hard bondage—in mortar, in brick, and in all manner
of service in the field. All their service in which they made them
serve was with rigor. (Exo 1:8-14 NKJV)
Done as a nation.
Nothing is done as a nation. Things
are done by the rulers of nations, and
those who obey the rulers of nations,
and those who agree with the rulers of
nations. But there always those who
disagree with government policy and
vastly more who are ignorant of government
policy. All are responsible for it tho?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Did they not order
the killing of the Israeli children "at birth"?
Did they? Show us the Bible reference.
Exo 1:15  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of
which
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 
Exo 1:16  And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the
Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye
shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 
Exo 1:17  But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of
Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. 
Exo 1:18  And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said
unto
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children
alive? 
Exo 1:19  And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew
women
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered
ere the midwives come in unto them. 
Exo 1:20  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people
multiplied, and waxed very mighty. 
Exo 1:21  And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that
he made them houses. 
Exo 1:22  And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that
is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save
alive. 
Bingo. Those are the actions of the
Pharaoh, not all of Egypt.
Bingo? Did you bother to actually read it?
Exo 1:22  So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who
is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall
save alive." 
Now, who did the dirty deed, the Pharaoh? And let us not forget the
midwives spoke of earlier.
"The Pharaoh commanded his people".

The policy came from the Pharaoh, only
the Pharaoh should be held responsible. Are
we all liable for the Watergate breakin just
because Nixon ordered it?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
There are certain laws which had required the death penalty,
period.
What law, and how was he supposed to know it?
The laws, the Mosaic Laws that we were speaking of had just been
passed and voted on by all the people. He was there when the laws
were
being read aloud for all to know. He was without excuse.
1) We don't know that. He never got a
trial, was never allowed to tell his side.
2) We don't even know that he was Hebrew.
The Hebrews were travelling and encounted
"a man". No one knew him, he is not identified
by name or tribe, so he clearly WASN'T aware
of Mosaic Laws. Should people be executed
for violating another religion's laws?
3) The only person who wanted him killed
was God - so why didn't God kill him?
And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of
Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the
people were in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance,
then
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And
the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth
ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an
atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one
law
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born
among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth
among them. (Num 15:26-29 KJV)
The priests who were the judges were to know all the law and follow
it
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
to the nth degree. This would mean finding out whether the above is
true, or not. And to Follow it accordingly.
Here directly below the above is the flip side of that
understanding
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
and it too was to be followed to the nth degree.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that
soul
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the
word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall
utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Num 15:30-31
KJV)
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
There were certain cases in the desert where some sought to usurp
the
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
will of God and created evil by the opposition within the
encampment
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
of the Israelites. God gave them all warning to separate themselves
from these people and all that they owned. Then the earth opened up
and swallowed them whole. So yes, there was occasion for God's
judgment but he always gives fair notice and an opportunity to
repent
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
aforehand.
The Sabbath breaker
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found
a
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Bingo. "A man". Obviously NOT a fellow
Hebrew since no one recognized him.
He was clearly not a Hebrew so why was
he killed for violating Hebrew laws?
You do not know that he was not a Hebrew.
His anonimity is proof of that.
No, it isn't. Besides if you were to have read the laws regarding both
the Israeli and the foreigner in the land you would see that a fair
hearing was held for people in either situation with even more
leniency to the foreigner who knew not the laws of the land.
The way I read it that was what the elders
were doing, holding him so a "fair hearing" could
be held.

Why didn't he GET a hearing? Why wasn't he
allowed to tell his side?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Secondly, had you paid attention to the scripture above it speaks to
the "sojourner" in the land. It spoke of those people, the people that
may have been ignorant, etc. It appears to me that all the bases were
covered as to grace and judgment.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And they that found him
gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the
congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared
what should be done to him.
Bingo. No trial, no chance to hear his
side, even the Hebrews were unsure what to
do with him.
Really? Then why the "ward"?
Just the point. If he was a Hebrew there
would no need to keep him under guard, they
would know who he is and where to find him.
Only a stranger would need to be guarded like
that.
You make a lot of presumptions, do you not think that an Israeli would
make a run for his life? As to Guarded? in a "Ward" not a jail or
prison?
Where would a fellow Hebrew go? Everyone
would have known him and his family and where
to find him. He was clearly not a Hebrew, hence
we don't even know his name.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
He was not a Hebrew but he is being
killed for violation a Hebrew law.
As the law applied to the "sojourners" through the land, and if they
were ignorant of the law there was provisions for a clemency as you
read about earlier, then why keep harping on your agenda instead of
following the facts of the day?
I would think YOU would be troubled
by the "facts of the day".

You stressed how forgiving God is -
so where is the forgiveness in this story?
This poor sod hurt no one, was minding his
own business and God orders him to be killed
without even hearing his side.

Doesn't that bother you?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Again I refer you to the scripture above
and how the law was to be followed. If they did not follow the law and
adhere to all of it, including the actions of proper judgment they
those that did so would be held accountable, and if the Judges were
priests they would be held to a higher standard of judgment as a
representative of God.
Post by Mitchell Holman
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man
Bingo. God interrupted the process and
condemned the man to die. Just like that.
Show where he "interrupted"?
The passage shows the elders pondering
what to do with him when God jumps into
the discussion with his order of execution.
Who asked God for his opinion?
Who was it that God spoke to?
Perhaps you should read that section, again.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
You have repeated that several times,
without proof. Without understanding the Law, the application of the
Law, and who was under those laws and who was not.
Is it that you are bound by your agenda and have to room to
understand
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
the norms of the day?
That is just the point. The "norms
of the day" were barbaric and need to be
condemned as such.
But the "norms" you speak of do not exist, nor coincide with actions,
as has been pointed out to you from scripture, and the norms of the
heathens sacrificing their babies to molten hot idols, Plus all types
of sexual perversions and so on yet when people set themselves to
Follow God and live a moral life with legal restraints such as we used
to have up until a few yew years back and you call them barbaric?
Yes, I know you posted a link to an inconclusive report about the
questioning of the value of a death penalty, but that did not re
enforce your position as to it being barbaric.
Executing children is always barbaric.
Slavery is always barbaric. Genocide is
always barbaric. Excusing them as "norms of
the day" and "Covenant with God" does not
change their nature.

One reason slavery lasted as long as
it did was this "Biblical value" attitude
by Christians. The whole origin of the
Southern Baptist Convention was Christian
insistence on the correctness of slavery,
based on the Bible.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
all the congregation shall stone him
with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him
without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the
LORD
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
commanded Moses. (Num 15:32-36 KJV)
In other words they locked him up for determination of the sin, and
then sought the Lord as to the penalty of "knowing to do sin, direct
affront to God, and he was then stoned.
That is NOT what the passage says. The Hebrew
elders did not seek God's opinion, God ordered his
death spontaneously.
And as to why God didn't kill him but instead
demanded the "congregation" to do it for him, well.....
"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put
to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp." (Num 15:34-35 KJV)
Like I said, no one asked god's opinion,
he just interrupts with his condemnation.
Yes, you have been quite emphatic about some supposed interruption.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Seems obvious to me that they were seeking directions.
It was their responsibility, it also shows people that it isn't an
easy thing to do and so they won't take death of others lightly,
If God did it they wouldn't learn and understand and would do like
most people think to do in their anger and say "GD" someone at the
drop of a hat.
Why do you think that the first ones to throw stones are those that
are the closest to the person?
Since God alone wanted him dead why didn't
God just snap his fingers and cause him to die?
Why demand that others carry out his judgement?
It wasn't God's job to do that.
Let me ask you, if you felt someone wronged another and it bothered
you deeply so you wished death upon the sucker. And a gov't employee
jumped up said "Yes sir!" and off'd the poor sucker, compared to the
fact that it was legal of you to off the guy and it was your job to do
it. Would you feel so desirous of immediate actions when the blood
spilt was on your hands and not the hands of another?
God wanted it done, why didn't God do it
himself? He certainly had no qualms about
killing other people himself, what makes this
instance any different?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-28 14:39:09 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-02-29 14:59:49 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-02 15:30:05 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-02 19:35:00 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-03 14:28:53 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-04 16:43:43 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-05 14:35:04 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-06 15:35:05 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-07 15:15:32 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-08 20:02:12 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-09 15:00:36 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-10 15:20:35 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-11 14:54:15 UTC
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-12 03:27:55 UTC
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2020-03-12 15:30:08 UTC
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2020-03-22 03:30:50 UTC
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** (fChrist) 03/21/20 Again greeting Mitchell here ...

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Mitchell Holman
2020-02-28 14:40:54 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:23:50 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:38:57 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 08:41:12 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 08:37:48 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 07:58:43 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids killed
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where God
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a fair
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall that
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the destruction.
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want a
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on DD
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety of
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution, slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages. Man's
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems vary
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
The young were all trained from their early years in the way of
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It is
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at that
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Why didn't god just snap his fingers
and make the sinners disappear while leaving
the innocents alone?
Did that not happen with Noah?
Bingo. Why DID god kill everyone for
the "sins" of a few?
It was for the sins of MANY. you'll see why when I write the
overview.
If your god cannot distinguish the
innocent from the guilty - or worse yet,
can but can't be bothered to - his system
of justice is no justice at all.
But you have no understanding of a true God, and will not even permit
it.
Every religious fanatic claims an
"understanding of the true god".
The god of this world, Satan, is like you speak of. It is he that
causes religions to go out and kill all the people in a town for their
heresies.
Satan only does what your god lets
him do, according to your mythology.
People understand in a sense, karma, or yin yang, positive and
negative, good and evil. But that depth is shallow and only reflects
the underlying motivations.
Robert
2020-02-28 20:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:23:50 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:38:57 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 08:41:12 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 08:37:48 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 07:58:43 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids killed
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the people.
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where God
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he allowed
it to be hardened towards him. The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a fair
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall that
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the destruction.
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want a
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.

A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out of
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?

And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on DD
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety of
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution, slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages. Man's
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems vary
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing Christian
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's and
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.

You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
The young were all trained from their early years in the way of
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It is
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at that
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
For whatever reason you cannot get that thought out of your head.

When you previously brought up what you considered scriptures that
supported you thinking, in each of them I pointed out the sins or
errors of those people that brought judgment down upon their heads.
In no sense did you change your mind, nor appeared to even understand
what all was going on. So are you on a quest for truth, or an agenda
to find some way of justifying your contempt towards the God of the
bible?

I also do not see you protesting any other gods. Like the Greek gods
and their wrath, the gods of Canaan to whom babies and children were
sacrificed, or any other gods. Any particular reason you are focused
on the God of Creation alone?
Why didn't god just snap his fingers
and make the sinners disappear while leaving
the innocents alone?
Did that not happen with Noah?
Bingo. Why DID god kill everyone for
the "sins" of a few?
It was for the sins of MANY. you'll see why when I write the
overview.
If your god cannot distinguish the
innocent from the guilty - or worse yet,
can but can't be bothered to - his system
of justice is no justice at all.
But you have no understanding of a true God, and will not even permit
it.
Every religious fanatic claims an
"understanding of the true god".
and how is it that you are qualified to judge any?
The god of this world, Satan, is like you speak of. It is he that
causes religions to go out and kill all the people in a town for their
heresies.
Satan only does what your god lets
him do, according to your mythology.
Mythology does not heal, give sight to the blind, enables the lame to
walk, heal the sick, the broken hearted. Recovery of lost body parts
due to leprosy, restore withered body parts. Enable the hearing of the
deaf or allow the mute to speak.
People understand in a sense, karma, or yin yang, positive and
negative, good and evil. But that depth is shallow and only reflects
the underlying motivations.
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-02-29 14:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids killed
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the people.
Kings don't need popular approval.
Post by Robert
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where God
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he allowed
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?

The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Post by Robert
The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a fair
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall that
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the destruction.
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want a
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
What cities have what morals?
Post by Robert
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.
Then punish the people, not the whole city.
Post by Robert
A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out of
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Post by Robert
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their
babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just
weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on DD
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety of
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution,
slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages. Man's
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems vary
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing Christian
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's and
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Post by Robert
The young were all trained from their early years in the way of
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the
laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It is
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at that
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.

Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
Post by Robert
For whatever reason you cannot get that thought out of your head.
When you previously brought up what you considered scriptures that
supported you thinking, in each of them I pointed out the sins or
errors of those people that brought judgment down upon their heads.
In no sense did you change your mind, nor appeared to even understand
what all was going on. So are you on a quest for truth, or an agenda
to find some way of justifying your contempt towards the God of the
bible?
I also do not see you protesting any other gods. Like the Greek gods
and their wrath, the gods of Canaan to whom babies and children were
sacrificed, or any other gods. Any particular reason you are focused
on the God of Creation alone?
No one here is defending the cruelty
of those gods so they don't need to be
addressed.
Post by Robert
Why didn't god just snap his fingers
and make the sinners disappear while leaving
the innocents alone?
Did that not happen with Noah?
Bingo. Why DID god kill everyone for
the "sins" of a few?
It was for the sins of MANY. you'll see why when I write the
overview.
If your god cannot distinguish the
innocent from the guilty - or worse yet,
can but can't be bothered to - his system
of justice is no justice at all.
But you have no understanding of a true God, and will not even permit
it.
Every religious fanatic claims an
"understanding of the true god".
and how is it that you are qualified to judge any?
I can condemn the actions of Jim Jones.
I can condemn the crimes of David Koresh.
I can condemn the morality of Warren Jeffs.
Religious fanatics are not above criticism
just because they claim to have a "true
understanding of God" as you put it.
Post by Robert
The god of this world, Satan, is like you speak of. It is he that
causes religions to go out and kill all the people in a town for their
heresies.
Satan only does what your god lets
him do, according to your mythology.
Mythology does not heal, give sight to the blind, enables the lame to
walk, heal the sick, the broken hearted. Recovery of lost body parts
due to leprosy, restore withered body parts. Enable the hearing of the
deaf or allow the mute to speak.
There are no documented cases of miracles.
Robert
2020-03-02 07:29:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids killed
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the people.
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?

You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where
God
Post by Robert
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he allowed
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened due
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?

Where is your rationale?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a
fair
Post by Robert
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall
that
Post by Robert
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the destruction.
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want a
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
What cities have what morals?
Have you not heard of blue laws? Or laws that distance porn houses
away from schools, churches, etc. or the states that do not allow the
selling of Alcohol on Sundays, and so on?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.
Then punish the people, not the whole city.
We've been around that town square too many times.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out of
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?

When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or worse?
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their
babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just
weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on
DD
Post by Robert
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety of
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution,
slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages. Man's
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems vary
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing Christian
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's and
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The young were all trained from their early years in the way of
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the
laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It
is
Post by Robert
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at
that
Post by Robert
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.

In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead

Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both sides
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.

A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
For whatever reason you cannot get that thought out of your head.
When you previously brought up what you considered scriptures that
supported you thinking, in each of them I pointed out the sins or
errors of those people that brought judgment down upon their heads.
In no sense did you change your mind, nor appeared to even understand
what all was going on. So are you on a quest for truth, or an agenda
to find some way of justifying your contempt towards the God of the
bible?
I also do not see you protesting any other gods. Like the Greek gods
and their wrath, the gods of Canaan to whom babies and children were
sacrificed, or any other gods. Any particular reason you are focused
on the God of Creation alone?
No one here is defending the cruelty
of those gods so they don't need to be
addressed.
Post by Robert
Why didn't god just snap his fingers
and make the sinners disappear while leaving
the innocents alone?
Did that not happen with Noah?
Bingo. Why DID god kill everyone for
the "sins" of a few?
It was for the sins of MANY. you'll see why when I write the
overview.
If your god cannot distinguish the
innocent from the guilty - or worse yet,
can but can't be bothered to - his system
of justice is no justice at all.
But you have no understanding of a true God, and will not even permit
it.
Every religious fanatic claims an
"understanding of the true god".
and how is it that you are qualified to judge any?
I can condemn the actions of Jim Jones.
I can condemn the crimes of David Koresh.
I can condemn the morality of Warren Jeffs.
Religious fanatics are not above criticism
just because they claim to have a "true
understanding of God" as you put it.
Post by Robert
The god of this world, Satan, is like you speak of. It is he that
causes religions to go out and kill all the people in a town for
their
Post by Robert
heresies.
Satan only does what your god lets
him do, according to your mythology.
Mythology does not heal, give sight to the blind, enables the lame to
walk, heal the sick, the broken hearted. Recovery of lost body parts
due to leprosy, restore withered body parts. Enable the hearing of the
deaf or allow the mute to speak.
There are no documented cases of miracles.
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Lucifer
2020-03-02 10:05:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 23:29:42 -0800, Robert <***@none.com> wrote:

Why doesn't God amend his design so problems do not happen?
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids killed
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the people.
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?
You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where
God
Post by Robert
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he allowed
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened due
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a
fair
Post by Robert
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall
that
Post by Robert
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the destruction.
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want a
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
What cities have what morals?
Have you not heard of blue laws? Or laws that distance porn houses
away from schools, churches, etc. or the states that do not allow the
selling of Alcohol on Sundays, and so on?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.
Then punish the people, not the whole city.
We've been around that town square too many times.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out of
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or worse?
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their
babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just
weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on
DD
Post by Robert
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety of
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution,
slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages. Man's
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems vary
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing Christian
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's and
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The young were all trained from their early years in the way of
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the
laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It
is
Post by Robert
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at
that
Post by Robert
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both sides
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
For whatever reason you cannot get that thought out of your head.
When you previously brought up what you considered scriptures that
supported you thinking, in each of them I pointed out the sins or
errors of those people that brought judgment down upon their heads.
In no sense did you change your mind, nor appeared to even understand
what all was going on. So are you on a quest for truth, or an agenda
to find some way of justifying your contempt towards the God of the
bible?
I also do not see you protesting any other gods. Like the Greek gods
and their wrath, the gods of Canaan to whom babies and children were
sacrificed, or any other gods. Any particular reason you are focused
on the God of Creation alone?
No one here is defending the cruelty
of those gods so they don't need to be
addressed.
Post by Robert
Why didn't god just snap his fingers
and make the sinners disappear while leaving
the innocents alone?
Did that not happen with Noah?
Bingo. Why DID god kill everyone for
the "sins" of a few?
It was for the sins of MANY. you'll see why when I write the
overview.
If your god cannot distinguish the
innocent from the guilty - or worse yet,
can but can't be bothered to - his system
of justice is no justice at all.
But you have no understanding of a true God, and will not even permit
it.
Every religious fanatic claims an
"understanding of the true god".
and how is it that you are qualified to judge any?
I can condemn the actions of Jim Jones.
I can condemn the crimes of David Koresh.
I can condemn the morality of Warren Jeffs.
Religious fanatics are not above criticism
just because they claim to have a "true
understanding of God" as you put it.
Post by Robert
The god of this world, Satan, is like you speak of. It is he that
causes religions to go out and kill all the people in a town for
their
Post by Robert
heresies.
Satan only does what your god lets
him do, according to your mythology.
Mythology does not heal, give sight to the blind, enables the lame to
walk, heal the sick, the broken hearted. Recovery of lost body parts
due to leprosy, restore withered body parts. Enable the hearing of the
deaf or allow the mute to speak.
There are no documented cases of miracles.
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-02 19:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids
killed
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the people.
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?
No Pharaoh was ever deposed. They
dictated, they didn't negotiate.
Post by Robert
You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
If the orders didn't come from the
Pharaoh alone why was Moses (and even
God) asking for relief from the Pharaoh
alone?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on without
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power greater
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where
God
Post by Robert
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire nation
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he allowed
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened due
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a
fair
Post by Robert
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall
that
Post by Robert
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the
destruction.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want
a
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
What cities have what morals?
Have you not heard of blue laws? Or laws that distance porn houses
away from schools, churches, etc. or the states that do not allow the
selling of Alcohol on Sundays, and so on?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.
Then punish the people, not the whole city.
We've been around that town square too many times.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out of
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or worse?
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their
babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just
weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on
DD
Post by Robert
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety
of
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution,
slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages.
Man's
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems
vary
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's and
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The young were all trained from their early years in the way
of
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the
laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and love
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It
is
Post by Robert
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at
that
Post by Robert
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both sides
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.

A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.

Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.

It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.

It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.

It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.

We expect such overreactions (Hiroshima,
Dresden, the Holocaust) from mere mortals
because they cannot separate good people from
evil doers.

But God can. So why doesn't he?
Robert
2020-03-02 22:22:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids
killed
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the
people.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?
No Pharaoh was ever deposed. They
dictated, they didn't negotiate.
Then you better read up on how they worked with people.
Post by Robert
You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
If the orders didn't come from the
Pharaoh alone why was Moses (and even
God) asking for relief from the Pharaoh
alone?
He was the leader.
Have you ever been in the position of a leader and understand what
leadership takes? Either a major controlling interest, or a popularity
wave.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
2) God is supposed to be above this sort
of "tit for tat" revenge killing, no?
How many years of the killing of the Israeli infants went on
without
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
interference from God?
God allowed it to happen, no?
You could say that.
Tit for tat?
How many times had the Pharaoh promise to let the Israelites go and
broke his word? The Pharaoh knew he was dealing with a power
greater
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
than himself yet he hardened his heart more on each occasion where
God
Post by Robert
showed his power with the capability of wiping out the entire
nation
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
had he so chosen. All the plagues that happened. And each time the
Pharaoh yielded in word god instantly made the plague disappear
instantly. Like with the flies, in seconds.
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened due
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The peoples of Egypt lived in fear of
the Hebrews because there were so many of them. It was the root cause
of the slavery.
You sit there in judgment of God based on a foggy memory, or even
perhaps without having read parts of it. And so you cannot make a
fair
Post by Robert
judgment based on feelings.
I am just going by what the Bible says.
If that be the case they you should feel free to point it out.
IOW's, show proof.
Again, by whose definitions? Especially when you might recall
that
Post by Robert
Abraham tried to negotiate with God to forestall the
destruction.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
I am sure that meant a lot to the
innocent people who were killed.
They paid it no never mind and wanted to have their way with the
angels.
Then punish the guilty, no everyone in
a whole town. Is god incapable of separating
the innocent from guilty?
He knows even the intent of the heart.
As to innocents? I remember a saying in Tijuana Mexico. If you want
a
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
virgin you have to pull the baby out yourself .
Such was the morals of that city.
Cities don't have morals. Cities do not
commit sins. Cities don't pray. Why destroy
a city for what a handful of people in the
city do?
Really? Cities do have morals, as well as moral laws.
What cities have what morals?
Have you not heard of blue laws? Or laws that distance porn houses
away from schools, churches, etc. or the states that do not allow the
selling of Alcohol on Sundays, and so on?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Cities do not commit sins, its people do.
Then punish the people, not the whole city.
We've been around that town square too many times.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
A handful of people? How convenient to use that expression that holds
no water. The sins of the peoples of those cities stunk to the high
heavens. Abraham tried negotiating with God on your premise. Asking
God to save them if there were X many out of thousands, and even down
to 10 righteous people out of thousands, and God said he would, but
they were not to be found. So then for the sake of 10 righteous out
of
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
say only 50,000 people God would have saved the cities, then just how
does your "handful" of bad people stack up against it?
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or worse?
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation. If you figure that
is a cure, then the annihilation of evil men is justified.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
No country on earth punishes families
of criminals. That is barbaric.
Americans kill infants by the millions as they sacrifice their
babies
to the god of selfishness. As do many other people in the world.
Many countries allow co-hab in jail for criminals, not just
weekends,
and Mexico forces the woman to suffer in Jail with her husband on
DD
Post by Robert
offenses. Imagine never being able to hear the end of that? LOL
Yes the muslim's kill children and entire families for a variety
of
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
offenses. Children are stolen in many nations for prostitution,
slave
labor, and who knows what all. Africans kill entire villages.
Man's
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
inhumanity to man is very real.
We are talking about justice systems. Even
Saudis don't execute the families of transgressors.
Can you guarantee that? Royal families have fled the country with
their lived in order to escape retribution.
Muslims justice systems vary depending on sects. Justice systems
vary
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
depending on who is in power, both locally and nationally.
Entire Families are wiped out in retribution. So it does happen.
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's
and
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly. Sometimes
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit approval
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The young were all trained from their early years in the way
of
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
the
Lord and to do His righteousness. they were to learn all the
laws
and
keep them in their hearts so that they would do no evil.
Those are teenagers, not infants.
Yet two year old react as they see their parents react.
How can a 2 year old even KNOW religious
laws much less be condemned for violation one?
Very few of them would even care, and at that age why bring up
religion? They hate what they see you hating and mocking, and
love
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
what you love.
Bingo. Two year olds can't even speak but
they should be killed because of what their
parents did?
They mimic their parents and so they develop the same reactions. It
is
Post by Robert
natural, although a few kids are just flat out rebellious even at
that
Post by Robert
age to their families. Strongly self willed.
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both sides
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before. Because
of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path he
sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.

It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of God
you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose to
remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.

So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a confidence
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but the
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being any
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.

So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you would
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
We expect such overreactions (Hiroshima,
Dresden, the Holocaust) from mere mortals
because they cannot separate good people from
evil doers.
But God can. So why doesn't he?
He separated out for himself a people, and what happened?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-03 14:26:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids
killed
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the
people.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?
No Pharaoh was ever deposed. They
dictated, they didn't negotiate.
Then you better read up on how they worked with people.
Just so. The pharaohs didn't work with people,
they gave orders to people. Akhenaten changed the
whole religion of the country, that was HIS ruling,
not the will of the people.
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
If the orders didn't come from the
Pharaoh alone why was Moses (and even
God) asking for relief from the Pharaoh
alone?
He was the leader.
And his thinking could have - and WAS -
influenced by God. His orders kept the
slaves, his orders freed the slaves. It
isn't like he put this issue before the
voters.
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened due
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Why?

If God can control people's thinking
why didn't he change the Pharaohs'?
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or worse?
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation.
If you figure that is a cure, then the annihilation
of evil men is justified.
"Changing the heart of men" isn't
the issue, separating the guilty from
the innocent is.

Our justice systems do that, God's
apparently doesn't.
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's
and
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly.
Sometimes
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit
approval
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
That in no more part of their justice
system than Hiroshima is part of ours.
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both sides
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before. Because
of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path he
sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.
It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of God
you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose to
remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.
So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?

Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but
the
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.

Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being any
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
Post by Robert
So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you would
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Post by Robert
We expect such overreactions (Hiroshima,
Dresden, the Holocaust) from mere mortals
because they cannot separate good people from
evil doers.
But God can. So why doesn't he?
He separated out for himself a people, and what happened?
Just the point. If he wants a sin-free
humanity why didn't he make one?
Robert
2020-03-03 19:45:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:26:06 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 08:58:36 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:04 -0600, Mitchell Holman
The pharaoh punished all the children of Israel, not just with
slavery
but killing them outright. Moses was to be one of those kids
killed
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
but he was rescued in a basket by a daughter of the Pharaoh.
1) The pharoh committed those acts, not
the children. Why kill them?
The country committed those acts, not the Pharaoh personally.
Huh? The pharaoh represented the people?
A Pharaoh could not do what he does without the support of the
people.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Kings don't need popular approval.
Really? Why then are kings deposed? Why when they raise the taxes too
high and keep them there are they tossed out?
No Pharaoh was ever deposed. They
dictated, they didn't negotiate.
Then you better read up on how they worked with people.
Just so. The pharaohs didn't work with people,
they gave orders to people. Akhenaten changed the
whole religion of the country, that was HIS ruling,
not the will of the people.
A person would be foolish to say that they didn't rule, but they would
also be foolish to say that they didn't work with people.

Joseph ruled Egypt for the Pharaoh when he was alive, and Joseph saved
all of Egypt from starvation. I also showed you some examples from the
Bible as to their workings with the people at various times in their
history. One of them was their enslaving the Jews in order to keep
them from over ruling the Pharaohs and controlling all of Egypt.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
You saw in my last post on this subject that the Pharaoh worked with
the men and women of his country to carry out certain deeds. Else he
would be required to enslave his own people.
If the orders didn't come from the
Pharaoh alone why was Moses (and even
God) asking for relief from the Pharaoh
alone?
He was the leader.
And his thinking could have - and WAS -
influenced by God. His orders kept the
slaves, his orders freed the slaves. It
isn't like he put this issue before the
voters.
If he hadn't freed the slaves after most all of the Egyptians first
born were killed, he'd have been a dead man. As it was he did reverse
himself and his decision after some counseling from his kinsman and
ended up dying in the river.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened
due
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Why?
I already mentioned his hardness in killing the firstborn of the
Hebrews.
Post by Mitchell Holman
If God can control people's thinking
why didn't he change the Pharaohs'?
He never made Pharaoh to go against his will, so what makes you think
he "controls peoples minds"?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or
worse?
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation.
If you figure that is a cure, then the annihilation
of evil men is justified.
"Changing the heart of men" isn't
the issue, separating the guilty from
the innocent is.
Our justice systems do that, God's
apparently doesn't.
And our justice system does not change men. They adjudicate their
sentencing for the damages done and do a lousy job of that due to
bleeding hearts.

You will find more and more criminals wanting to die rather than
return to prison, not because they can't do the time but because of
the moral systems in the prisons being under the control of the
prisoners. Few like living in fear of their cell mates or being
someone's wife or girlfriend.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's
and
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly.
Sometimes
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit
approval
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary definition
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
That in no more part of their justice
system than Hiroshima is part of ours.
It was and is a full part of their moral system and its judgments. To
them they were criminals and broke their laws.

Hiroshima was in no way related. We were at war, not just with the
tempore of Japan, but their nation of people. They attacked us on our
flank when they considered us weak and vulnerable because of the war
on the other side of the earth. They also brought the war to our
shores in California and attacked our civilians.

Do you think the emperor was in direct control of all phases of the
military and their actions? Were not the people fighting for the
Emperor, their god?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both
sides
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding the
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before. Because
of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path he
sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.
It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of God
you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose to
remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.
So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?
He has, once the evil rises to a certain threshold.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part of
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but
the
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without merit.
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?

The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the equation
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented of
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument can
continue.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being any
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you would
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.

Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the righteous
would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire and
brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.

Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was to
die for the freedom of all.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was given
control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he gave
that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of Faith
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised the
Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their destruction
to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed and
killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were hated
before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
We expect such overreactions (Hiroshima,
Dresden, the Holocaust) from mere mortals
because they cannot separate good people from
evil doers.
But God can. So why doesn't he?
He separated out for himself a people, and what happened?
Just the point. If he wants a sin-free
humanity why didn't he make one?
What do you thing Israel the people and the nation were all about?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-04 15:02:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:26:06 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened
due
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Why?
I already mentioned his hardness in killing the firstborn of the
Hebrews.
Post by Mitchell Holman
If God can control people's thinking
why didn't he change the Pharaohs'?
He never made Pharaoh to go against his will, so what makes you think
he "controls peoples minds"?
And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to
Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the
miracles that I have put in your power. But I
will harden his heart, so that he will not let
the people go.
Exodus 4:21

What does this passage mean?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger, but
stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or
worse?
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation.
If you figure that is a cure, then the annihilation
of evil men is justified.
"Changing the heart of men" isn't
the issue, separating the guilty from
the innocent is.
Our justice systems do that, God's
apparently doesn't.
And our justice system does not change men. They adjudicate their
sentencing for the damages done and do a lousy job of that due to
bleeding hearts.
Bleeding hearts? Like turning the other cheek?
Post by Robert
You will find more and more criminals wanting to die rather than
return to prison,
Huh? I have seen no spate of suicides among
parolees being returned to prison. Most know what
doing "hard time" means and accept it as part of
their lifestyle.
Post by Robert
not because they can't do the time but because of
the moral systems in the prisons being under the control of the
prisoners. Few like living in fear of their cell mates or being
someone's wife or girlfriend.
In my experience prisoners have wives and
girlfriends and children on the outside and look
forward to seeing them again. Prison suicides
are virtually unheard of.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are 100's
and
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly.
Sometimes
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit
approval
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in Africa.
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary
definition
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
That in no more part of their justice
system than Hiroshima is part of ours.
It was and is a full part of their moral system and its judgments. To
them they were criminals and broke their laws.
Hiroshima was in no way related. We were at war, not just with the
tempore of Japan, but their nation of people. They attacked us on our
flank when they considered us weak and vulnerable because of the war
on the other side of the earth. They also brought the war to our
shores in California and attacked our civilians.
Do you think the emperor was in direct control of all phases of the
military and their actions? Were not the people fighting for the
Emperor, their god?
The war ended when the Emperor ordered it to end.
Most of his cabinet opposed the surrender, but when he
went on the air to announce the surrender no one could
disagree. It was not the will of the people, it was
the will of HIM.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in order
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both
sides
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding
the
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before. Because
of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path he
sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.
It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of God
you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose to
remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.
So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?
He has, once the evil rises to a certain threshold.
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part of
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as shown
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but
the
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the equation
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented of
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument can
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being any
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.

Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you would
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the righteous
would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire and
brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
Post by Robert
Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was to
die for the freedom of all.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was given
control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he gave
that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
Post by Robert
people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of Faith
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised the
Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their destruction
to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed and
killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were hated
before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.

But such is Biblical morality.....



"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
Robert
2020-03-04 18:40:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:26:06 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened
due
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Why?
I already mentioned his hardness in killing the firstborn of the
Hebrews.
Post by Mitchell Holman
If God can control people's thinking
why didn't he change the Pharaohs'?
He never made Pharaoh to go against his will, so what makes you think
he "controls peoples minds"?
And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to
Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the
miracles that I have put in your power. But I
will harden his heart, so that he will not let
the people go.
Exodus 4:21
What does this passage mean?
I hate to say this, but I have already referenced that as it was
written in above, verse a few chapters later. Noting has changed so
why do we need to revisit this?
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Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger,
but
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stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
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And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or
worse?
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation.
If you figure that is a cure, then the annihilation
of evil men is justified.
"Changing the heart of men" isn't
the issue, separating the guilty from
the innocent is.
Our justice systems do that, God's
apparently doesn't.
And our justice system does not change men. They adjudicate their
sentencing for the damages done and do a lousy job of that due to
bleeding hearts.
Bleeding hearts? Like turning the other cheek?
Not at all. They are not related.
You are mixing up what a person might do, as a believer, and what the
state does as an adjudicator.
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Post by Robert
You will find more and more criminals wanting to die rather than
return to prison,
Huh? I have seen no spate of suicides among
parolees being returned to prison. Most know what
doing "hard time" means and accept it as part of
their lifestyle.
Well then, keep up with the news. Criminals often have shoot outs with
the cops not only to escape, but they would rather face death than to
go back to prison.
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Post by Robert
not because they can't do the time but because of
the moral systems in the prisons being under the control of the
prisoners. Few like living in fear of their cell mates or being
someone's wife or girlfriend.
In my experience prisoners have wives and
girlfriends and children on the outside and look
forward to seeing them again. Prison suicides
are virtually unheard of.
It is hard to commit suicide in prison.
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Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
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you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are
100's
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and
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sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly.
Sometimes
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by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit
approval
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of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in
Africa.
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You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary
definition
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for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
That in no more part of their justice
system than Hiroshima is part of ours.
It was and is a full part of their moral system and its judgments. To
them they were criminals and broke their laws.
Hiroshima was in no way related. We were at war, not just with the
tempore of Japan, but their nation of people. They attacked us on our
flank when they considered us weak and vulnerable because of the war
on the other side of the earth. They also brought the war to our
shores in California and attacked our civilians.
Do you think the emperor was in direct control of all phases of the
military and their actions? Were not the people fighting for the
Emperor, their god?
The war ended when the Emperor ordered it to end.
Most of his cabinet opposed the surrender, but when he
went on the air to announce the surrender no one could
disagree. It was not the will of the people, it was
the will of HIM.
Cabinet? What place did they have if it was all the emperors decision?
The war was over before he signed anything, including giving up his
position as emperor god. The Pharaoh rescinded his decision to let the
people go based on his advisors/supporters. Any ruler who has no
supporters cannot rule. That is all I have been trying to say all
along, and the supporters are as guilty or as honorable as their
chosen leaders.
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The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in
order
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to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both
sides
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of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding
the
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subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before.
Because
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of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path
he
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sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.
It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of
God
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you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose
to
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remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.
So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?
He has, once the evil rises to a certain threshold.
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part of
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents? Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.

What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back on
track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?

We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.

God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
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But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
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throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
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that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but
the
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more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
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No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the equation
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented of
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument can
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment, how
many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
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It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being
any
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different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God. He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
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So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
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like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the righteous
would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire and
brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
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Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was to
die for the freedom of all.
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It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was given
control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he gave
that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
Post by Robert
people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of Faith
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
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It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised the
Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their destruction
to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed and
killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were hated
before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?

The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness. But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the price
for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Post by Mitchell Holman
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
John Ritson
2020-03-04 21:25:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:26:06 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 13:04:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
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Why DID God "harden the pharaoh's heart"
against the Hebrews?
He didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart against the people but he
allowed
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Post by Robert
it to be hardened towards him.
Why? Why not "lighten" the Pharaohs
heart and convince him to just release
the Hebrews?
The entire "plagues of Egypt was
unnecessary.
Pullease, give me a break. The Pharaohs heart was already hardened
due
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Post by Robert
to his actions to the Hebrews far before God got involved. Ordering
their babies killed, etc.?
Where is your rationale?
What was GOD'S rationale?
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
and he would not listen to Moses and
Aaron, just as the LORD had said to
Moses." Exodus 9:12
The Pharaoh was already in a hardened position, God just used that to
hasten the outcome.
Why?
I already mentioned his hardness in killing the firstborn of the
Hebrews.
Post by Mitchell Holman
If God can control people's thinking
why didn't he change the Pharaohs'?
He never made Pharaoh to go against his will, so what makes you think
he "controls peoples minds"?
And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to
Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the
miracles that I have put in your power. But I
will harden his heart, so that he will not let
the people go.
Exodus 4:21
What does this passage mean?
I hate to say this, but I have already referenced that as it was
written in above, verse a few chapters later. Noting has changed so
why do we need to revisit this?
Post by Mitchell Holman
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Abraham asked the wrong question. "If
there are sinners in the cities then punish
them accordingly" would be the proper stance.
They were, whether he phrased it like that or not. Lot lost some of
his own children to that city, who knew of the impending danger,
but
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stayed, Even his wife's ties to it were too strong for her.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
And BTW, you have the access to the same materials as I do.
Except you are defending this cruel
morality, I am not.
Cruel morality?
When you put violent offenders in a jail, do they get better or
worse?
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
If there were no jailors that could maintain order how long do you
thing it would take before there were mass killings in the jail?
Just my point. We don't respond to a
prison riot by nuking the whole prison. We
separate the good from the bad and assess
individual punishment. If lowly mankind can
do it why cannot God?
Man never changed the heart of men by separation.
If you figure that is a cure, then the annihilation
of evil men is justified.
"Changing the heart of men" isn't
the issue, separating the guilty from
the innocent is.
Our justice systems do that, God's
apparently doesn't.
And our justice system does not change men. They adjudicate their
sentencing for the damages done and do a lousy job of that due to
bleeding hearts.
Bleeding hearts? Like turning the other cheek?
Not at all. They are not related.
You are mixing up what a person might do, as a believer, and what the
state does as an adjudicator.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
You will find more and more criminals wanting to die rather than
return to prison,
Huh? I have seen no spate of suicides among
parolees being returned to prison. Most know what
doing "hard time" means and accept it as part of
their lifestyle.
Well then, keep up with the news. Criminals often have shoot outs with
the cops not only to escape, but they would rather face death than to
go back to prison.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
not because they can't do the time but because of
the moral systems in the prisons being under the control of the
prisoners. Few like living in fear of their cell mates or being
someone's wife or girlfriend.
In my experience prisoners have wives and
girlfriends and children on the outside and look
forward to seeing them again. Prison suicides
are virtually unheard of.
It is hard to commit suicide in prison.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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Post by Mitchell Holman
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Post by Mitchell Holman
Show us where any country has executed
the family of a criminal.
According to Sharia (sp) law if you are an openly practicing
Christian
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you are to be killed. All around the world, today, there are
100's
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
and
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sometimes thousand killed from infants to the very elderly.
Sometimes
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
by the actual rulers of the land, other times with the tacit
approval
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
of the nation as dozens of entire villages wiped out as in
Africa.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
You used the word criminal in the American sense to bolster your
argument and limit what you know can be brought up.
My claim stands firm. No country executes
the families of criminals, so why does God do it?
Well your claim is false. Unless you have some proprietary
definition
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
for criminals. And your verses that you quoted did not support your
understandings.
OK, educate me. Show me where any modern
government has executed the families of criminals.
Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya villages, considered them criminals
and wiped out families and all.
That in no more part of their justice
system than Hiroshima is part of ours.
It was and is a full part of their moral system and its judgments. To
them they were criminals and broke their laws.
Hiroshima was in no way related. We were at war, not just with the
tempore of Japan, but their nation of people. They attacked us on our
flank when they considered us weak and vulnerable because of the war
on the other side of the earth. They also brought the war to our
shores in California and attacked our civilians.
Do you think the emperor was in direct control of all phases of the
military and their actions? Were not the people fighting for the
Emperor, their god?
The war ended when the Emperor ordered it to end.
Most of his cabinet opposed the surrender, but when he
went on the air to announce the surrender no one could
disagree. It was not the will of the people, it was
the will of HIM.
Cabinet? What place did they have if it was all the emperors decision?
The war was over before he signed anything, including giving up his
position as emperor god. The Pharaoh rescinded his decision to let the
people go based on his advisors/supporters. Any ruler who has no
supporters cannot rule. That is all I have been trying to say all
along, and the supporters are as guilty or as honorable as their
chosen leaders.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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The thing is, neither you nor I can sit there and judge these
"innocents" one way or another.
I can point out injustice where I see it.
And killing children is per se an injustice.
Where you actually see it? Or presume so.
You used the word injustice. But on whose terms?
You tell me, you are the one defending
the execution of children.
Sorry, but it is you that set the definitions and the scenario.
In Viet Nam the killing of Children was justified, as it is when
fighting the muslims, etc. I know of lots of reasons for it, all
justified, and if you allowed your sensitivities to over rule your
common sense you would end up dead
Sorry Mitchell, but you have worn this subject out, Now you are
rehashing your same old thoughts, but raising the bar, etc. in
order
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
to seek validity. It is time to pay attention to details on both
sides
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
of the picture and invest of yourself to studying facts regarding
the
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
subject.
A good defense attorney would so in order to exonerate his client.
I am not seeking validity for me but rather
validity for "Biblical morality". As described in
the Bible God is petty and vindictive and prone
to temper tantrums.
A town is full of drunkards and harlots?
Destroy it. Humanity isn't as perfect as I like?
Drown the whole planet. A reqional monarch won't
release his slaves? Kill all the children.
Any modern ruler doing this would be
branded as a war criminal and rightfull so.
Ok, take the City of Nineveh, which I described to you before.
Because
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
of their great evil to themselves and those around them God told them
they were scheduled for destruction. At the end of his warning path
he
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
sent on last prophet, Jonah. Jonah despised those people so much that
he wasn't going to go, but God redirected him to the City. He told
then that their demise was emanate for not listening to God and
correcting themselves. The ruler order all to straighten up, and God
extended the life of the city for 200 years.
It is typical of God to give several warnings in these types of cases
and had you actually read the OT to see and understand the ways of
God
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
you would see the consistency of God, in that sense. Yet, you chose
to
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
remain ignorant of him so that you can utilize the outcomes as his
plan all along, instead of a last resort.
So where is your fairness? You accuse and yet you swear that you are
correct without supporting evidence.
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?
He has, once the evil rises to a certain threshold.
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
But the deity is supposed to be all-knowing.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part of
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents? Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back on
track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
He is certainly claimed to have slaughtered more people.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why, but
the
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the equation
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented of
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument can
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment, how
many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people save
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man, lawlessness
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being
any
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He walked
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant gratifications
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc. and
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God. He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the righteous
would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire and
brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was to
die for the freedom of all.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was given
control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he gave
that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
Post by Robert
people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of Faith
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised the
Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their destruction
to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed and
killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were hated
before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?
The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness. But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the price
for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Post by Mitchell Holman
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
But why didn't God do the dashing and ripping open himself?

Why cause PTSD among the Jews by making them do it?
--
John Ritson
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2020-03-04 21:51:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Ritson
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why does he allow evil to exist?
A Holy Spirit-guided answer has already been given earlier:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.bible.prophecy/H0WNZlL6SG8/aisQMYVZGwAJ
Post by John Ritson
**Perhaps** to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
**emphasis** added.
Post by John Ritson
But the deity is supposed to be all-knowing.
GOD is all-knowing as evident by His keeping the eternally (Mark 3:29)
condemned in the dark with their guessing (see **emphasis** above).

In the interim, I am simply wonderfully hungry (
http://bit.ly/Philippians4_12 ) and hope you, John, also have a
healthy appetite too.

So how are you ?








...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,

HeartDoc Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist with an http://bit.ly/EternalMedicalLicense
2016 & upwards non-partisan candidate for U.S. President:
http://bit.ly/WonderfullyHungryPresident
and author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://bit.ly/HeartDocAndrewCare
which is the only **healthy** cure for the U.S. healthcare crisis
Robert
2020-03-04 23:26:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 21:25:46 +0000, John Ritson
Post by John Ritson
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
If God has the power to just punish the
guilty people and spare the innocent why
doesn't he use it?
He has, once the evil rises to a certain threshold.
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
But the deity is supposed to be all-knowing.
He still allows us our options, he does not indiscriminately send
people to heaven or hell as some would have him do, like the radical
people in some church due in regards to predestination. (yeah, like
some Calvinists)
Post by John Ritson
Post by Robert
God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
He is certainly claimed to have slaughtered more people.
Depending on who you talk to their reasoning's vary. Their memories
clouded as they haven't studied the Bible in years.
<snip>
Post by John Ritson
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
But why didn't God do the dashing and ripping open himself?
Why cause PTSD among the Jews by making them do it?
Their enemies were usually the ones to do it, the same people just
waiting for God to lift his hand of protection on his people so that
they could destroy as many of them as they could.
Not always, just usually, There was a time that nearly the entire
tribe of Benjamin save 500 young men that hid in the mountains was
wiped out because of their aligning themselves with evil, Not a woman
or child was left.
Post by John Ritson
--
John Ritson
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-05 14:30:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part of
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Post by Robert
Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back on
track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
Post by Robert
We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
Post by Robert
God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
What has god done?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why,
but
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
the
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the equation
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented of
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument can
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Post by Robert
That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment, how
many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people
save
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man,
lawlessness
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being
any
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He
walked
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant
gratifications
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of them,
plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc.
and
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Post by Robert
He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
The contradictions in the Bible are
too numerous to list here but they are
many.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support your
contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the
righteous
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire and
brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was to
die for the freedom of all.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was given
control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he gave
that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
Post by Robert
people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of Faith
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised the
Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their
destruction
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed and
killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were hated
before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?
We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.

Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
Post by Robert
The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?

In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
Post by Robert
But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the price
for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Robert
2020-03-05 17:09:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part
of
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back on
track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
What has god done?
Blessed nations that respected him.
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But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
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throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
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Post by Robert
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that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why,
but
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the
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Post by Robert
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more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you to
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the
equation
Post by Robert
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each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented
of
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their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so difficult,
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument
can
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.

Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; 

Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments. 

And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.

What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment, how
many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.

V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.

Is that fair to anyone?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on earth,
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people
save
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man,
lawlessness
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being
any
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Post by Mitchell Holman
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He
walked
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and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant
gratifications
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via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of
them,
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plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that destroyed
much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc.
and
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Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were bad
as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were eight
that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?

For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)

These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.

God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
The contradictions in the Bible are
too numerous to list here but they are
many.
Yeah, yeah, I heard that all before, and I have gone over as many as
were presented to me, and replied according to the word of God as to
what was written.

Had you even studied the word like you would a contract to see the
in's and out's as well as any nuances, without emotions you would see
a far different picture. So far I'd bet that you have just seen and
accepted the lists of others of like mind. And if you have, then at
the end, when judgment time actually arrives how will you feel when
you see truth for yourself and find you that by accepting the words of
other that you in fact only condemned yourself and others who you
might have convinced. How bad will you feel then to know that things
could have been far different if you had dealt honestly with what was
set before you?

While you do not have to follow the truth you at least have the
responsibility to yourself to acknowledge what it is or is not and
thus be in control of your own destiny and not by the thoughts of
others.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support
your
Post by Robert
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contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the
righteous
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would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire
and
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brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
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Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples of
this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than follow
him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was
to
Post by Robert
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die for the freedom of all.
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Post by Mitchell Holman
It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many more
plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was
given
Post by Robert
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control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he
gave
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that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
Post by Robert
people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love of
any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to let
up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of
Faith
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?

Keep in mind that everyone who claims to be a Christian may not be.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to see
all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised
the
Post by Robert
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Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their
destruction
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to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time as
the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At that
time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as the
evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed
and
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killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were
hated
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before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?
We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
Post by Mitchell Holman
In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?

I am sure he wants people who want to be in heaven, with him.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the price
for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-06 14:48:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will be
like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part
of
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".

When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".

I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back on
track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
I wasn't aware there was an obligation
of keeping other people alive.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow their
agenda.
What has god done?
Blessed nations that respected him.
All of Europe respected him in 1345. What
they got in return was the Black Death.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
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Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why,
but
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
the
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you
to
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own children
and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the
equation
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented
of
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so
difficult,
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument
can
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.
Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; 
Just so. Why should the children suffer
for the sins of their parents?
Post by Robert
Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments. 
And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.
What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Should you be punished for what your
father did and thought?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment, how
many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.
V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.
Is that fair to anyone?
I am struggling see what is "fair" in
punishing people for what others did.
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on
earth,
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people
save
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man,
lawlessness
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants being
any
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He
walked
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant
gratifications
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of
them,
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plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all things
sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that
destroyed
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much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc.
and
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destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were
bad
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as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were
eight
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that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?
For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)
These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.
Who negotiated this "contract" and who
signed it?
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God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Where was the "justice" for the
firstborn children he killed? Had they
violated some law?
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He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
The contradictions in the Bible are
too numerous to list here but they are
many.
Yeah, yeah, I heard that all before, and I have gone over as many as
were presented to me, and replied according to the word of God as to
what was written.
Had you even studied the word like you would a contract to see the
in's and out's as well as any nuances, without emotions you would see
a far different picture. So far I'd bet that you have just seen and
accepted the lists of others of like mind. And if you have, then at
the end, when judgment time actually arrives how will you feel when
you see truth for yourself and find you that by accepting the words of
other that you in fact only condemned yourself and others who you
might have convinced. How bad will you feel then to know that things
could have been far different if you had dealt honestly with what was
set before you?
While you do not have to follow the truth you at least have the
responsibility to yourself to acknowledge what it is or is not and
thus be in control of your own destiny and not by the thoughts of
others.
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So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
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like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support
your
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contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the
righteous
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would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire
and
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brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
So all must suffer because of this
mythical "Adam". No wonder so many educated
people are rejecting Christianity.
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Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples
of
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this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than
follow
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him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was
to
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die for the freedom of all.
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It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many
more
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plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was
given
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control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he
gave
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that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
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people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love
of
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any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to
let
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up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of
Faith
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redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?
Witch burnings. Innocent people judged,
condemned and executed by Christians.
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It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to
see
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all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised
the
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Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their
destruction
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to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time
as
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the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At
that
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time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as
the
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evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed
and
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killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were
hated
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before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?
We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Bingo. Mankind cannot separate out the
war mongers from the innocent. God can. So
why doesn't he do it?
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Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
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The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
That is just passing the buck. If God CAN
spare "his people" then why doesn't he do it?
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In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?
"Obey my Commandments or die" is not free will.
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But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the price
for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
They are using the same logic you are.
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"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
Killing children is justified because
they might be possessed by demons?

Seriously?




Pastors starved tot, thinking he was demon-possessed
April 14, 2015


Police say the pastors at a Balch Springs church
starved a 2-year-old boy they said was possessed
by a demon, and later held a ceremony to resurrect
the boy.

Several people told police the boy was given water
four to five times a day, but no food for 25 days
before he died on March 22. A church member tried
to feed the boy, but the pastors scolded her and
forbade her from doing so, according to court
records.

The church, named Iglesia Internacional Jesus es
el Rey, is operated out of a house in the 12300
block of Duke Drive.

The morning of March 22, police said, Meza and three
other people — listed as suspects in court records —
held a ceremony to revive the boy.

A video of the ceremony shows Meza reciting prayers
while holding the boy, whom she refers to as Benjamin,
in her arms.

“In the name of Jesus, I’m utilizing this oil to try
to get him back to life,” she explains in Spanish.

http://tinyurl.com/l2frvlp
Robert
2020-03-07 02:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:48:56 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will
be
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like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it part
of
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our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred with.
Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".
When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".
I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Based upon what you just said, you are still arguing and old covenant.
The timeframe of which you never lived in and evidently don't
understand.

So why not read it through with the objective idea of understanding
the period in which it was written and the morals of the people of
that day?
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Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back
on
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track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
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We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
I wasn't aware there was an obligation
of keeping other people alive.
Then why do you figure we are supposed to rebuild those we defeat?
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God has done far better than you give him credit for and it is in
recorded history. Which some choose to ignore in order to follow
their
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agenda.
What has god done?
Blessed nations that respected him.
All of Europe respected him in 1345. What
they got in return was the Black Death.
Were we not speaking of the time before Christ? When the Law of Moses
was in operation?
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But I have a deep faith in the Love and fairness of God as
shown
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throughout history in all its dispensations. So I have a
confidence
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that you do not have in his grace, mercy, and Love.
I am not blinded so that I cannot ask God questions of why,
but
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the
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more I study the more I see his true nature.
The "true nature" of god sounds pretty
malevolent judging by his actions in the OT.
Again you go against the grain of truth. Accusations without
merit.
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No, questions without answers.
Why do children have to be executed?
Why drown the whole planet? Why is slavery
not condemned? Why the plagues of Egypt?
It is all covered there in scripture.
No, the FACT of it is covered in scripture.
The necessity of it needs justification.
It is, like I said, all covered there in scripture.
I trust your word on that, you know the
Bible batter than I. I have never seen a
passage explaining WHY the innocent are made
to suffer for the actions of the guilty.
Indeed the whole "sins of the father"
paradigm is an explicit punishment of the
innocent, no?
It is your understanding of the "innocent" that does not allow you
to
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consider the realities of life. For instance, Why at times were all
the children under two kept alive and taken in as their own
children
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and other times not?
The sins of the fathers were combined with the hatred of God
throughout their heirs. You appear to forget that part of the
equation
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each time you mention it. And like I said, if the children repented
of
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their hatred of and to God, The generational curse was lifted. and
that is part of what makes these types of conversations so
difficult,
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in that ones agenda over rules understandings so that the argument
can
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continue.
How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.
Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; 
Just so. Why should the children suffer
for the sins of their parents?
As it says, because they hate him.
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Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments. 
And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.
What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Should you be punished for what your
father did and thought?
I am not under that law, and no one is, so why even ask?
Or have you lost the thread of continuity?

That law pertained only to the Jew living in Israel. Not to any other
nation or people or chose to live in Israel and abide by their laws.

Did you lose sight of that?
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That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment,
how
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many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.
V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.
Is that fair to anyone?
I am struggling see what is "fair" in
punishing people for what others did.
Their families obviously chose to do as their parents did, thus
supporting their parents in their sins and hatred. Why didn't you
chose to focus on the fact that if the heirs repented that they were
all forgiven and the chain was broken? Is that not vital to the truth
and reality as well?
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It was not necessary to kill all life
on earth because SOME adult humans sinned.
How about being realistic. if there are 10 million people on
earth,
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with 100,000 of them under the age of two, and all of the people
save
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8 are total heathens with every type of sin known to man,
lawlessness
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of all sorts, then what is the chance of the 100,000 infants
being
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any
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different? Yet you claim only "SOME" of the adults sinned yet the
bible says they all sinned. Those people knew who God was. He
walked
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and talked with many, but those peoples sought instant
gratifications
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via evil over the ways of God. It was all about them and God be
damned. That same sin that Satan was guilty of infected all of
them,
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plus in the case of humans, evil or lack of morality in all
things
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sexual is and was of primary importance to them and that
destroyed
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much of the Jews over the years. including when they were in the
desert. Today it pervasive as well via the Internet, movies, etc.
and
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destroys many a home.
Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were
bad
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as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were
eight
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that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?
For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)
These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.
Who negotiated this "contract" and who
signed it?
The people of Israel told Moses to deal with God for them. Then when
the laws were finalized they were read before all the people who then
in one accord voted for it and then there was the final ratification
of it before God with 70 priests, Moses, Aaron, in a Feast.
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God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Where was the "justice" for the
firstborn children he killed? Had they
violated some law?
The Mosaic Law had not yet been established. And God provided a way of
escape from the death angel. Plus don't forget all the killing of the
Hebrew boy children at birth that was done by the Egyptians.

Does not the Egyptian nation bare responsibility for all that happened
to them? Did not the Egyptian priests and their gods challenge the God
of the most high?
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He keeps his words and does not change his
consistency so that he can be trusted and understood.
The contradictions in the Bible are
too numerous to list here but they are
many.
Yeah, yeah, I heard that all before, and I have gone over as many as
were presented to me, and replied according to the word of God as to
what was written.
Had you even studied the word like you would a contract to see the
in's and out's as well as any nuances, without emotions you would see
a far different picture. So far I'd bet that you have just seen and
accepted the lists of others of like mind. And if you have, then at
the end, when judgment time actually arrives how will you feel when
you see truth for yourself and find you that by accepting the words of
other that you in fact only condemned yourself and others who you
might have convinced. How bad will you feel then to know that things
could have been far different if you had dealt honestly with what was
set before you?
While you do not have to follow the truth you at least have the
responsibility to yourself to acknowledge what it is or is not and
thus be in control of your own destiny and not by the thoughts of
others.
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So what I am saying is that your "SOME" is much greater than you
would
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like to admit and therefore not enough justification to support
your
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contempt of God.
People sinned before Ye Floode, they
sinned after Ye Floode. What did killing
those 10 million people accomplish?
It allowed those that believed in God to continue on, even with the
knowledge that many would turn to evil because of the fall of man.
Had not God allowed man to continue, then all the men of the earth
would belong to Satan, whether they wanted to or not. Since there
would be no Jesus to free mankind from sin and thus even the
righteous
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would have been abandoned by God, and ended up in the Lake of Fire
and
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brimstone meant for Satan and his angels.
Is God incapable of controlling this
Satan? If God loves mankind why does he
permit this corrupting influence to exist?
God puts limitations on him, but most of all gave us all authority
over him as believers. Adam yielded his dominion of this earth to
Satan. Satan has ruined and contaminated it and the universe around
it. At the end it will all be dealt with.
If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
So all must suffer because of this
mythical "Adam". No wonder so many educated
people are rejecting Christianity.
But you have not been speaking about or to Christianity, You have been
speaking to Judaism, and the times of men far before the time of
Christ and the Christianity that followed.

Obviously few of those people you speak of are educated as the live
with superstitious beliefs having never studied the word of God to see
what;'s up, an many seek other gods and religions, some even Satanism.

Obviously education has nothing to do with it, but indoctrination can
play a large part in it. Do you find the same intensity of contempt
for those that follow other gods? No. Why is that?
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Jesus knew when he came to save men that still most of the peoples
of
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this world would deny him and go to hell willingly rather than
follow
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him, Yet he was willing to die for the few even tho his purpose was
to
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die for the freedom of all.
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It was not necessary to kill the first
born children to make a political point to
the Pharaoh.
Really? It was the thread than broke the camels back. How many
more
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plagues would you have preferred happen first?
If god is incapable of rescuing "his
people" without killing hundreds of children
then his powers seem pretty limited. Why did
he permit their enslavement to start with?
Mankind chose their path and destiny at the beginning. Adam, was
given
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control and dominion over all living things on this earth, yet he
gave
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that up in exchange for the knowledge of good and evil. The
repercussions of which you are now dealing with in your life. Satan
loves buffaloing
"Buffaloing". Good word, I like it....;)
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people making them think this is all normal and that
there is no God. He doesn't care about you one bit, he has no love
of
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any type, but he does have a hatred of God and he is not about to
let
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up on controlling your thoughts and understandings lest you see the
light and then say, Enough is ENOUGH and fight the good fight of
Faith
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redeeming the days and time and helping others out of the ditch
prepared for us by the devil with the dominion yielded to him by
Adam.
I am underwhelmed with the whole "it is all
Satan's fault" mythology. Blaming this Satan is
just a copout from individual responsibilty. It
is the abdication of God's responsibilty.
Not at all, this place was given to man who was given dominion over
all of if to do with as he please, he chose to place it in Satan's
hands, by yielding to him. Not a smart move to be sure.
"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?
Witch burnings. Innocent people judged,
condemned and executed by Christians.
And all those things were verboten by Jesus and God. So whose
responsibilities were they?
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It was not necessary to incinerate
entire cities because SOME of their adults
behaved badly.
There is that "SOME", again. that "SOME" being 99%+ of the
civilization.
The Bible doesn't say that. As the
pro-lifers are always saying, "if it saves
one innocent life". Why the disregard for
the innocent all over the OT?
Again, there is no disregard like you mention, You just refuse to
see
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all the times peoples were warned way ahead of time. God could have
killed ALL the Canaanite's at the time of Abraham when he promised
the
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Land to Abraham and his heirs. They where basically all evil people
but God said their threshold of evil did not warrant their
destruction
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to they would be caretakers of the cities and land until such time
as
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the Israelites returned to the land some 435 +40 years later. At
that
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time Israel entered into the land to take it over. and their evil
warranted their destruction. And yes, during that time there were
prophets in Canaan who spoke with God and to the peoples, even as
the
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evil grew and the people of that land wanted the Israelites cursed
and
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killed before they even got to their countries. The Hebrews were
hated
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before they ever arrived to Canaan and did anything.
To me it is an excuse for genocide.
Capturing an enemy city and then killing
all the civilians inside is not excuseable
in any circumstances.
But such is Biblical morality.....
If that city will corrupt your country through its immorality,
diseases, and evil shenanigans and be a thorn in your side
continuously, then you would rather turn your cheek and bend over?
We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Bingo. Mankind cannot separate out the
war mongers from the innocent. God can. So
why doesn't he do it?
He will when it comes time for the final judgment of men. Until then
man is responsible for their actions.
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Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
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Post by Robert
The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
That is just passing the buck. If God CAN
spare "his people" then why doesn't he do it?
If I am attacked by a bunch of God haters and they kill me I go
straight to heaven as a born again believer. I would be way better off
there than here. My body dies but not me.
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In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?
"Obey my Commandments or die" is not free will.
Are you telling me you have no choice? Look at all you have been
saying and doing.
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But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the
price
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for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings that
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
They are using the same logic you are.
No, since a born again Christian would never do such a thing in the
name of God.
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"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
Killing children is justified because
they might be possessed by demons?
Seriously?
People make movies of it all the time.
Why is that?
Post by Mitchell Holman
Pastors starved tot, thinking he was demon-possessed
April 14, 2015
Police say the pastors at a Balch Springs church
starved a 2-year-old boy they said was possessed
by a demon, and later held a ceremony to resurrect
the boy.
Several people told police the boy was given water
four to five times a day, but no food for 25 days
before he died on March 22. A church member tried
to feed the boy, but the pastors scolded her and
forbade her from doing so, according to court
records.
The church, named Iglesia Internacional Jesus es
el Rey, is operated out of a house in the 12300
block of Duke Drive.
The morning of March 22, police said, Meza and three
other people — listed as suspects in court records —
held a ceremony to revive the boy.
A video of the ceremony shows Meza reciting prayers
while holding the boy, whom she refers to as Benjamin,
in her arms.
“In the name of Jesus, I’m utilizing this oil to try
to get him back to life,” she explains in Spanish.
http://tinyurl.com/l2frvlp
Obviously they were not doing this under the authority of God.
God recommended that the disciples fast not those they were trying to
deliver.

And Jesus delivered children and adults instantly, as every believer
who operates in Faith can do. It is part of the authority given to men
in Christ Jesus.

Sorry to hear about that
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
Mitchell Holman
2020-03-07 15:09:33 UTC
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Post by Robert
On Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:48:56 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will
be
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like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it
part
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of
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our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred
with.
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Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".
When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".
I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Based upon what you just said, you are still arguing and old covenant.
The timeframe of which you never lived in and evidently don't
understand.
So why not read it through with the objective idea of understanding
the period in which it was written and the morals of the people of
that day?
I understand the morals of the day.

And I am free to blast them as repugnant
and loathesome. They should NOT be upheld as
morals we should follow, hence my complaint
about any call to embrace "Biblical morality".
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Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back
on
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track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
We didn't rebuild Germany after WWI. Your complaint
about helping them "get back on track so they could repeat
the same military actions years later" doesn't apply to
WWI or WWII
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We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
I wasn't aware there was an obligation
of keeping other people alive.
Then why do you figure we are supposed to rebuild those we defeat?
Rebuilding a former foe = "an obligation to keeping them alive"?

What was the alternative - killing them all?
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How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.
for
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I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; 
Just so. Why should the children suffer
for the sins of their parents?
As it says, because they hate him.
The passage doesn't say that. The punishment
is for what their fathers did, not what THEY did.
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Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments. 
And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.
What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Should you be punished for what your
father did and thought?
I am not under that law, and no one is, so why even ask?
Or have you lost the thread of continuity?
That law pertained only to the Jew living in Israel. Not to any other
nation or people or chose to live in Israel and abide by their laws.
It reveals a petty, vindictive side of god
even most preachers don't want to talk about.
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That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment,
how
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many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.
V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.
Is that fair to anyone?
I am struggling see what is "fair" in
punishing people for what others did.
Their families obviously chose to do as their parents did, thus
supporting their parents in their sins and hatred. Why didn't you
chose to focus on the fact that if the heirs repented that they were
all forgiven and the chain was broken? Is that not vital to the truth
and reality as well?
Why should anyone have to "repent" (much
less be punished for) the sins of others?
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Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were
bad
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as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were
eight
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that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?
For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)
These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.
Who negotiated this "contract" and who
signed it?
The people of Israel told Moses to deal with God for them. Then when
the laws were finalized they were read before all the people who then
in one accord voted for it and then there was the final ratification
of it before God with 70 priests, Moses, Aaron, in a Feast.
A contract is a two way affair. I will do
this for you, you will do this for me. The Ten
Commandments are not a contract. They are top-
down orders from above. Do this or I will
destroy you. That is not a negotiation, it is
not a contract, it is an ultimatum.
Post by Robert
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God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Where was the "justice" for the
firstborn children he killed? Had they
violated some law?
The Mosaic Law had not yet been established.
That doesn't justify infanticide.

Nothing justifies infanticide.
Post by Robert
And God provided a way of
escape from the death angel. Plus don't forget all the killing of the
Hebrew boy children at birth that was done by the Egyptians.
Indeed. Where was "god's protection for
his chosen people" then? Why did he not protect
them?
Post by Robert
Does not the Egyptian nation bare responsibility for all that happened
to them? Did not the Egyptian priests and their gods challenge the God
of the most high?
If God is worried about being challenged by
other gods he is not as omnipotent as I thought.
Post by Robert
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If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
So all must suffer because of this
mythical "Adam". No wonder so many educated
people are rejecting Christianity.
But you have not been speaking about or to Christianity, You have been
speaking to Judaism, and the times of men far before the time of
Christ and the Christianity that followed.
I am speaking about the God of the Bible. Did
He undergo a change between the OT and NT?
Post by Robert
Obviously few of those people you speak of are educated as the live
with superstitious beliefs having never studied the word of God to see
what;'s up, an many seek other gods and religions, some even Satanism.
Obviously education has nothing to do with it, but indoctrination can
play a large part in it. Do you find the same intensity of contempt
for those that follow other gods? No. Why is that?
The actions of God in the Bible has nothing
to do with "indoctrination". They are plain
enough to read, and all can judge their morality.
Post by Robert
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"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?
Witch burnings. Innocent people judged,
condemned and executed by Christians.
And all those things were verboten by Jesus and God. So whose
responsibilities were they?
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18


Can Christians be blamed for obeying
a Biblical directive?
Post by Robert
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We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Bingo. Mankind cannot separate out the
war mongers from the innocent. God can. So
why doesn't he do it?
He will when it comes time for the final judgment of men. Until then
man is responsible for their actions.
God's injustice will be corrected later on?

That's it?
Post by Robert
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Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by Robert
The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
That is just passing the buck. If God CAN
spare "his people" then why doesn't he do it?
If I am attacked by a bunch of God haters and they kill me I go
straight to heaven as a born again believer. I would be way better off
there than here. My body dies but not me.
How can you complain of the injustice done
by the Pharaoh when you defend the injustice done
by god and his followers?
Post by Robert
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In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?
"Obey my Commandments or die" is not free will.
Are you telling me you have no choice? Look at all you have been
saying and doing.
Obedience under threat of death is not free will.
Post by Robert
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But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the
price
Post by Robert
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for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings
that
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Post by Robert
should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
They are using the same logic you are.
No, since a born again Christian would never do such a thing in the
name of God.
How is 9/11 different from the Christian
sacking of Jerusalem in 1099? In both cases
mass slaughter of innocents was carried out
in the name of God.
Post by Robert
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"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
Killing children is justified because
they might be possessed by demons?
Seriously?
People make movies of it all the time.
Why is that?
What do movies have to do with this?
Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
Pastors starved tot, thinking he was demon-possessed
April 14, 2015
Police say the pastors at a Balch Springs church
starved a 2-year-old boy they said was possessed
by a demon, and later held a ceremony to resurrect
the boy.
Several people told police the boy was given water
four to five times a day, but no food for 25 days
before he died on March 22. A church member tried
to feed the boy, but the pastors scolded her and
forbade her from doing so, according to court
records.
The church, named Iglesia Internacional Jesus es
el Rey, is operated out of a house in the 12300
block of Duke Drive.
The morning of March 22, police said, Meza and three
other people — listed as suspects in court records —
held a ceremony to revive the boy.
A video of the ceremony shows Meza reciting prayers
while holding the boy, whom she refers to as Benjamin,
in her arms.
“In the name of Jesus, I’m utilizing this oil to try
to get him back to life,” she explains in Spanish.
http://tinyurl.com/l2frvlp
Obviously they were not doing this under the authority of God.
God recommended that the disciples fast not those they were trying to
deliver.
And Jesus delivered children and adults instantly, as every believer
who operates in Faith can do. It is part of the authority given to men
in Christ Jesus.
Since Jesus described demonic possession
as a real thing can his followers be blamed
for taking it seriously?
Patrick B
2020-03-07 17:27:21 UTC
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Post by Robert
Post by Mitchell Holman
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
We didn't rebuild Germany after WWI. Your complaint
about helping them "get back on track so they could repeat
the same military actions years later" doesn't apply to
WWI or WWII
I was hoping someone besides me would catch that.
robt doesn't believe a thing I say.
Robert
2020-03-07 20:59:31 UTC
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On Sat, 07 Mar 2020 09:09:33 -0600, Mitchell Holman
Post by Mitchell Holman
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On Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:48:56 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will
be
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like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it
part
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of
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our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred
with.
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Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".
When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".
I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Based upon what you just said, you are still arguing and old covenant.
The timeframe of which you never lived in and evidently don't
understand.
So why not read it through with the objective idea of understanding
the period in which it was written and the morals of the people of
that day?
I understand the morals of the day.
And I am free to blast them as repugnant
and loathesome. They should NOT be upheld as
morals we should follow, hence my complaint
about any call to embrace "Biblical morality".
Well then, :) you are holding the "sins of the father" unto this
generation. Something that you said you were opposed to.

When I suggest the morals of the day that would have stopped at the
point where a New and Better Covenant was made, at the time of Christ.
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Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back
on
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track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
We didn't rebuild Germany after WWI. Your complaint
about helping them "get back on track so they could repeat
the same military actions years later" doesn't apply to
WWI or WWII
I was wrong on WWI and for that I am sorry, There was no official
plan, however,...
American economic assistance to Germany was part of the Marshall Plan,
a comprehensive program for Western Europe designed to rebuild the
infrastructure of nations impacted by WWII. It was motivated by the
belief that prosperity would make Germany less likely to turn to
Communism, which was a very real worry at the time and enable them to
contribute to their own defense. In the longer run, a prosperous
Western Europe became a key market for American exports.

This taken from a Q&A
And is as I recalled for that.
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We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
I wasn't aware there was an obligation
of keeping other people alive.
Then why do you figure we are supposed to rebuild those we defeat?
Rebuilding a former foe = "an obligation to keeping them alive"?
What was the alternative - killing them all?
The alternative would be to let the people rebuild per their
initiative without doing further harm as the war is over and a peace
agreement signed.

We have no obligation to keep them alive. They can do what they always
did.
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How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.
for
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I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; 
Just so. Why should the children suffer
for the sins of their parents?
As it says, because they hate him.
The passage doesn't say that. The punishment
is for what their fathers did, not what THEY did.
Aww gee. "of them that hate me"????
Right there it would exclude any who did not hate him. Besides the
fact that a God who forgives, forgives and does not hold their sins
past against them.
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Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments. 
And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.
What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Should you be punished for what your
father did and thought?
I am not under that law, and no one is, so why even ask?
Or have you lost the thread of continuity?
That law pertained only to the Jew living in Israel. Not to any other
nation or people or chose to live in Israel and abide by their laws.
It reveals a petty, vindictive side of god
even most preachers don't want to talk about.
I know of none who would refuse to speak about this, I do know of some
who in their ignorance did not recognize the differences of Covenants
and attempted to falsely blend then in together, and the RCC is one of
them.
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That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment,
how
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many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.
V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.
Is that fair to anyone?
I am struggling see what is "fair" in
punishing people for what others did.
Their families obviously chose to do as their parents did, thus
supporting their parents in their sins and hatred. Why didn't you
chose to focus on the fact that if the heirs repented that they were
all forgiven and the chain was broken? Is that not vital to the truth
and reality as well?
Why should anyone have to "repent" (much
less be punished for) the sins of others?
So that they clearly maintained a distance and separation from the
evil. You should have thought of that yourself.
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Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were
bad
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as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were
eight
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that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?
For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)
These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.
Who negotiated this "contract" and who
signed it?
The people of Israel told Moses to deal with God for them. Then when
the laws were finalized they were read before all the people who then
in one accord voted for it and then there was the final ratification
of it before God with 70 priests, Moses, Aaron, in a Feast.
A contract is a two way affair. I will do
this for you, you will do this for me. The Ten
Commandments are not a contract. They are top-
down orders from above. Do this or I will
destroy you. That is not a negotiation, it is
not a contract, it is an ultimatum.
It is all part of the contract, it was a two way street, that is why
as I have mentioned several times in this thread, that there were
Blessings and Cursing's attached to the Covenant. ALL of which was
made clear at the readings of the Law Covenant.

Why is it that I must constantly re iterate previously covered ground?
Is it that your agenda just blocks out what you do not want to
understand in the fairness of discussion?
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God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Where was the "justice" for the
firstborn children he killed? Had they
violated some law?
The Mosaic Law had not yet been established.
That doesn't justify infanticide.
Nothing justifies infanticide.
Yet where is your displeasure of the Egyptians who made this a long
standing policy in their country?

They did not provide a way out of their retribution but God did before
the time the firstborn of everything, yes including animals, was to be
killed.

Again, why do I need to constantly reiterate that fact that God
provided a way out ahead of the event?
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And God provided a way of
escape from the death angel. Plus don't forget all the killing of the
Hebrew boy children at birth that was done by the Egyptians.
Indeed. Where was "god's protection for
his chosen people" then? Why did he not protect
them?
Perhaps because they were failing to worship him for years. Centuries
in fact for most of them. This is why the study of the Bible in the
interest of fair play is necessary. If fills in all the background,

Because of the sins of these people and their wanting to return to
their old Egyptians gods they ended up wandering around the desert
until they had all died off. It was a mixed lot of people. Just
studying the 1st five books of the OT would fill you in on all of
this.
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Does not the Egyptian nation bare responsibility for all that happened
to them? Did not the Egyptian priests and their gods challenge the God
of the most high?
If God is worried about being challenged by
other gods he is not as omnipotent as I thought.
Why, because he allowed freedom of expression? He was never worried
about false Gods, but he warned people about following them.
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If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
So all must suffer because of this
mythical "Adam". No wonder so many educated
people are rejecting Christianity.
But you have not been speaking about or to Christianity, You have been
speaking to Judaism, and the times of men far before the time of
Christ and the Christianity that followed.
I am speaking about the God of the Bible. Did
He undergo a change between the OT and NT?
No. But as I said, the covenant changed as was promised throughout the
OT.
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Obviously few of those people you speak of are educated as the live
with superstitious beliefs having never studied the word of God to see
what;'s up, an many seek other gods and religions, some even Satanism.
Obviously education has nothing to do with it, but indoctrination can
play a large part in it. Do you find the same intensity of contempt
for those that follow other gods? No. Why is that?
The actions of God in the Bible has nothing
to do with "indoctrination". They are plain
enough to read, and all can judge their morality.
When you are indoctrinated with a belief that disallows you to see
what is, is indeed a false understanding, they you were indoctrinated
and have no way to related to the realities.
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"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?
Witch burnings. Innocent people judged,
condemned and executed by Christians.
And all those things were verboten by Jesus and God. So whose
responsibilities were they?
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18
Again, Old Covenant. Christians are under a different covenant.
Study the book of Romans, especially the 1st eight Chapters to see how
and why.
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Can Christians be blamed for obeying
a Biblical directive?
Yes, based on your understandings of it.
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We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Bingo. Mankind cannot separate out the
war mongers from the innocent. God can. So
why doesn't he do it?
He will when it comes time for the final judgment of men. Until then
man is responsible for their actions.
God's injustice will be corrected later on?
That's it?
God did not do injustice, that is your conclusion without factual
understandings.
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Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
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The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
That is just passing the buck. If God CAN
spare "his people" then why doesn't he do it?
If I am attacked by a bunch of God haters and they kill me I go
straight to heaven as a born again believer. I would be way better off
there than here. My body dies but not me.
How can you complain of the injustice done
by the Pharaoh when you defend the injustice done
by god and his followers?
There is your endless loop, your recycling of things as it you never
heard a word I said. We've been through more than enough recycling of
conversations, and I see no reason to reiterate what I know you will
just toss out. You could at least understand from the standpoint of
your beliefs amid my beliefs. Accept mine as being mine for purposes
of communication and continuing discussion. Then you could at least
see why it is that I came to my conclusions whether you agreed with
the outcome of not.

When we started this whole thing I made statements about the
Covenants, and the differences, the appropriate time frames for them,
but you kept mixing them all together and because of the cannot see
certain things, nor understand why certain things are not appropriate
today, but were back then. And these things are Key to understanding.
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In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?
"Obey my Commandments or die" is not free will.
Are you telling me you have no choice? Look at all you have been
saying and doing.
Obedience under threat of death is not free will.
Did you not know you were born to die?
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But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the
price
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for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings
that
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should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
They are using the same logic you are.
No, since a born again Christian would never do such a thing in the
name of God.
How is 9/11 different from the Christian
sacking of Jerusalem in 1099? In both cases
mass slaughter of innocents was carried out
in the name of God.
There was no Christian sacking of Jerusalem in 1099.
There was a religion of men who did the sacking, who claimed to be
Christian, but were not. They violated the word of God both in
doctrines and in actions.
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"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
Killing children is justified because
they might be possessed by demons?
Seriously?
People make movies of it all the time.
Why is that?
What do movies have to do with this?
Movies are the understandings of men, their thoughts played out.
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Pastors starved tot, thinking he was demon-possessed
April 14, 2015
Police say the pastors at a Balch Springs church
starved a 2-year-old boy they said was possessed
by a demon, and later held a ceremony to resurrect
the boy.
Several people told police the boy was given water
four to five times a day, but no food for 25 days
before he died on March 22. A church member tried
to feed the boy, but the pastors scolded her and
forbade her from doing so, according to court
records.
The church, named Iglesia Internacional Jesus es
el Rey, is operated out of a house in the 12300
block of Duke Drive.
The morning of March 22, police said, Meza and three
other people — listed as suspects in court records —
held a ceremony to revive the boy.
A video of the ceremony shows Meza reciting prayers
while holding the boy, whom she refers to as Benjamin,
in her arms.
“In the name of Jesus, I’m utilizing this oil to try
to get him back to life,” she explains in Spanish.
http://tinyurl.com/l2frvlp
Obviously they were not doing this under the authority of God.
God recommended that the disciples fast not those they were trying to
deliver.
And Jesus delivered children and adults instantly, as every believer
who operates in Faith can do. It is part of the authority given to men
in Christ Jesus.
Since Jesus described demonic possession
as a real thing can his followers be blamed
for taking it seriously?
He delivered men from it and showed them how and under what power and
conditions.

So what is the parallel you are attempting to draw here?
--
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6 KJV)
tesla sTinker
2020-03-08 02:10:28 UTC
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Robert, are you out of your mind? This is a nut house ofyour words.
Get real,, God is only going to forgive those with a child like heart.
The ones that get on their knees, and pray the act of perfect
contrition to Him. To be forgiving for an evil act they have done.
It is not negotiable. AT ALL.... Jesus made it clear, you cannot go
to Heaven without a child like heart. Anotherwords, if your heart is
hiding something, and you have not confessed it to His true priest, or
to His own Holy Body of Christ Himself, then you are doomed to hell.
Its up to you, and each and every own one of you , to clean their own
soul for Him. That is the least He asked for. And is entitled to it
completely He is. IF Not, they do not go there to His Holy Heaven. It
is bad enough that the rich remove the poor peoples money from them,
Stealing, so they can be rich, Having Luxury on earth as Heaven,
stealing it, and then ask for forgiveness of such sins as those, and if
they do not have an intention of never doing it again, (Child Like
Heart) God does not even listen. Your a stupid ass.
Post by Robert
On Sat, 07 Mar 2020 09:09:33 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will
be
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like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it
part
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of
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our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred
with.
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Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".
When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".
I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Based upon what you just said, you are still arguing and old covenant.
The timeframe of which you never lived in and evidently don't
understand.
So why not read it through with the objective idea of understanding
the period in which it was written and the morals of the people of
that day?
I understand the morals of the day.
And I am free to blast them as repugnant
and loathesome. They should NOT be upheld as
morals we should follow, hence my complaint
about any call to embrace "Biblical morality".
Well then, :) you are holding the "sins of the father" unto this
generation. Something that you said you were opposed to.
When I suggest the morals of the day that would have stopped at the
point where a New and Better Covenant was made, at the time of Christ.
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Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back
on
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track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
We didn't rebuild Germany after WWI. Your complaint
about helping them "get back on track so they could repeat
the same military actions years later" doesn't apply to
WWI or WWII
I was wrong on WWI and for that I am sorry, There was no official
plan, however,...
American economic assistance to Germany was part of the Marshall Plan,
a comprehensive program for Western Europe designed to rebuild the
infrastructure of nations impacted by WWII. It was motivated by the
belief that prosperity would make Germany less likely to turn to
Communism, which was a very real worry at the time and enable them to
contribute to their own defense. In the longer run, a prosperous
Western Europe became a key market for American exports.
This taken from a Q&A
And is as I recalled for that.
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We'd have been better off long term had we followed a scorched earth
policy and let them rebuild on their own and not on the backs of
Americans.
So much for forgiveness........
How do you figure that. Because someone forgives you for something
does not mean they take on the obligation of keeping you alive.
I wasn't aware there was an obligation
of keeping other people alive.
Then why do you figure we are supposed to rebuild those we defeat?
Rebuilding a former foe = "an obligation to keeping them alive"?
What was the alternative - killing them all?
The alternative would be to let the people rebuild per their
initiative without doing further harm as the war is over and a peace
agreement signed.
We have no obligation to keep them alive. They can do what they always
did.
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How can children "repent" the sins of their
fathers? And why should they even have to?
They can repent of their hatred towards God as I wrote just above.
The passage doesn't accuse them of "hatred
of god". Are YOU guilty of YOUR fathers sins?
And your grandfather, and your great-grandfather?
Then you ignored that part of the passage that I specifically pointed
out to you so that you could continue on in your specious argument.
for
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I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me;
Just so. Why should the children suffer
for the sins of their parents?
As it says, because they hate him.
The passage doesn't say that. The punishment
is for what their fathers did, not what THEY did.
Aww gee. "of them that hate me"????
Right there it would exclude any who did not hate him. Besides the
fact that a God who forgives, forgives and does not hold their sins
past against them.
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Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments.
And not only that but to whom he will show mercy.
What is your purpose of reason to ignore the reality of what is said
and present a false scenario?
Should you be punished for what your
father did and thought?
I am not under that law, and no one is, so why even ask?
Or have you lost the thread of continuity?
That law pertained only to the Jew living in Israel. Not to any other
nation or people or chose to live in Israel and abide by their laws.
It reveals a petty, vindictive side of god
even most preachers don't want to talk about.
I know of none who would refuse to speak about this, I do know of some
who in their ignorance did not recognize the differences of Covenants
and attempted to falsely blend then in together, and the RCC is one of
them.
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That hatred was the reason for the continuation of the punishment,
how
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many times must that be brought up before you can accept it?
The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love
and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does
not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children for the sin of the parents to the
third and fourth generation.
Numbers 14:18
And this fits under the law from which this was taken.
V20 states "I have pardoned according to thy word:" This is why I
recommended that you intellectually study the word of God to see who
He is and how he operates instead of operating off the cuff of a
faulty memory or understanding. Since in this case you unfairly judged
God and therefore condemned him according to your limited
recollection.
Is that fair to anyone?
I am struggling see what is "fair" in
punishing people for what others did.
Their families obviously chose to do as their parents did, thus
supporting their parents in their sins and hatred. Why didn't you
chose to focus on the fact that if the heirs repented that they were
all forgiven and the chain was broken? Is that not vital to the truth
and reality as well?
Why should anyone have to "repent" (much
less be punished for) the sins of others?
So that they clearly maintained a distance and separation from the
evil. You should have thought of that yourself.
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Are you really claiming there were NO
innocent people at the time? All the women
and infants were guilty and deserved to die?
In the case of the flood, yes. It got that bad. Not that ALL were
bad
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as you inferred or overstated, since I told you that there were
eight
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that at that point were still on the side of God.
Why didn't God just snap his fingers
and make the bad people die or disappear?
He didn't kill Noah's family for the sins
of humanity, he didn't kill Lot's family for
for his wife's transgression.
Clearly he has the power to power to
spare the innocent, why does he so seldom
seem to use it?
God is a just God.
Not in the Old Testament he isn't.
Do you understand the word "Just"?
For instance, to his own people whom he rescued from Egypt he says
this,...
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which
I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not
see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of
them that provoked me see it: But my servant Caleb, because he had
another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring
into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
(Num 14:22-24 KJV)
These people had a signed contract with God to follow the Law which
was negotiated, and be judged according to their law so as to receive
blessings / rewards for their adherences or Curses if they don't, and
it they still continue on in their shame the curses will increase.
Who negotiated this "contract" and who
signed it?
The people of Israel told Moses to deal with God for them. Then when
the laws were finalized they were read before all the people who then
in one accord voted for it and then there was the final ratification
of it before God with 70 priests, Moses, Aaron, in a Feast.
A contract is a two way affair. I will do
this for you, you will do this for me. The Ten
Commandments are not a contract. They are top-
down orders from above. Do this or I will
destroy you. That is not a negotiation, it is
not a contract, it is an ultimatum.
It is all part of the contract, it was a two way street, that is why
as I have mentioned several times in this thread, that there were
Blessings and Cursing's attached to the Covenant. ALL of which was
made clear at the readings of the Law Covenant.
Why is it that I must constantly re iterate previously covered ground?
Is it that your agenda just blocks out what you do not want to
understand in the fairness of discussion?
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God was judging according to the letter of the law.
Where was the "justice" for the
firstborn children he killed? Had they
violated some law?
The Mosaic Law had not yet been established.
That doesn't justify infanticide.
Nothing justifies infanticide.
Yet where is your displeasure of the Egyptians who made this a long
standing policy in their country?
They did not provide a way out of their retribution but God did before
the time the firstborn of everything, yes including animals, was to be
killed.
Again, why do I need to constantly reiterate that fact that God
provided a way out ahead of the event?
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And God provided a way of
escape from the death angel. Plus don't forget all the killing of the
Hebrew boy children at birth that was done by the Egyptians.
Indeed. Where was "god's protection for
his chosen people" then? Why did he not protect
them?
Perhaps because they were failing to worship him for years. Centuries
in fact for most of them. This is why the study of the Bible in the
interest of fair play is necessary. If fills in all the background,
Because of the sins of these people and their wanting to return to
their old Egyptians gods they ended up wandering around the desert
until they had all died off. It was a mixed lot of people. Just
studying the 1st five books of the OT would fill you in on all of
this.
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Does not the Egyptian nation bare responsibility for all that happened
to them? Did not the Egyptian priests and their gods challenge the God
of the most high?
If God is worried about being challenged by
other gods he is not as omnipotent as I thought.
Why, because he allowed freedom of expression? He was never worried
about false Gods, but he warned people about following them.
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If God allows this Satan to corrupt His
creation whose fault is that?
Adam's, as been previously pointed out.
So all must suffer because of this
mythical "Adam". No wonder so many educated
people are rejecting Christianity.
But you have not been speaking about or to Christianity, You have been
speaking to Judaism, and the times of men far before the time of
Christ and the Christianity that followed.
I am speaking about the God of the Bible. Did
He undergo a change between the OT and NT?
No. But as I said, the covenant changed as was promised throughout the
OT.
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Obviously few of those people you speak of are educated as the live
with superstitious beliefs having never studied the word of God to see
what;'s up, an many seek other gods and religions, some even Satanism.
Obviously education has nothing to do with it, but indoctrination can
play a large part in it. Do you find the same intensity of contempt
for those that follow other gods? No. Why is that?
The actions of God in the Bible has nothing
to do with "indoctrination". They are plain
enough to read, and all can judge their morality.
When you are indoctrinated with a belief that disallows you to see
what is, is indeed a false understanding, they you were indoctrinated
and have no way to related to the realities.
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"This is the work of Satan" has been the
Christian excuse for some of the worst atrocities
they ever committed.
Such as what?
Witch burnings. Innocent people judged,
condemned and executed by Christians.
And all those things were verboten by Jesus and God. So whose
responsibilities were they?
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18
Again, Old Covenant. Christians are under a different covenant.
Study the book of Romans, especially the 1st eight Chapters to see how
and why.
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Can Christians be blamed for obeying
a Biblical directive?
Yes, based on your understandings of it.
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We don't punish whole cities. We punish
people, as individuals, for what it is proven
they have done wrong.
Hiroshima, All the cities bombed in the WWI and WWII by the various
countries.
Bingo. Mankind cannot separate out the
war mongers from the innocent. God can. So
why doesn't he do it?
He will when it comes time for the final judgment of men. Until then
man is responsible for their actions.
God's injustice will be corrected later on?
That's it?
God did not do injustice, that is your conclusion without factual
understandings.
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Or do you agree with the "Hurricane Katria
was God's punishment of New Orleans for its sin"
thing?
No, I don't.
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The Jews were told what to do and to chase them out or destroy them
because of their avowed wickedness.
If God wants all this "wickedness"
destroyed why didn't HE do it?
It will all be dealt with at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on
this earth. Forever.
That is just passing the buck. If God CAN
spare "his people" then why doesn't he do it?
If I am attacked by a bunch of God haters and they kill me I go
straight to heaven as a born again believer. I would be way better off
there than here. My body dies but not me.
How can you complain of the injustice done
by the Pharaoh when you defend the injustice done
by god and his followers?
There is your endless loop, your recycling of things as it you never
heard a word I said. We've been through more than enough recycling of
conversations, and I see no reason to reiterate what I know you will
just toss out. You could at least understand from the standpoint of
your beliefs amid my beliefs. Accept mine as being mine for purposes
of communication and continuing discussion. Then you could at least
see why it is that I came to my conclusions whether you agreed with
the outcome of not.
When we started this whole thing I made statements about the
Covenants, and the differences, the appropriate time frames for them,
but you kept mixing them all together and because of the cannot see
certain things, nor understand why certain things are not appropriate
today, but were back then. And these things are Key to understanding.
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In fact why did He allow it in the
first place?
And have to listen to people of like mind as yourself complain about
not having free will?
"Obey my Commandments or die" is not free will.
Are you telling me you have no choice? Look at all you have been
saying and doing.
Obedience under threat of death is not free will.
Did you not know you were born to die?
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But they tired of the killing and
destruction and "the innocents" being destroyed, so they did not do
all that they were told to do, and ever since then have paid the
price
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for disobeying God ever since then and lost out on the blessings
that
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should have been theirs. Had their wives and children raped, stolen,
etc. Including the murdering of them. That was their reward for
"playing nice". Like you thought they should.
Wasn't that the justification for 9/11?
That America and it's collective "wickedness"
must be punished to appease God?
Yes, but Not God, but the god of this world satan, by those that
follow him.
They are using the same logic you are.
No, since a born again Christian would never do such a thing in the
name of God.
How is 9/11 different from the Christian
sacking of Jerusalem in 1099? In both cases
mass slaughter of innocents was carried out
in the name of God.
There was no Christian sacking of Jerusalem in 1099.
There was a religion of men who did the sacking, who claimed to be
Christian, but were not. They violated the word of God both in
doctrines and in actions.
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"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones
will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant
women ripped open."
Hosea 13:16
They broke the law and that was part of the curse for doing so.
You need to bear in mind the total picture, the grand scheme of
things. How else can you understand any of it?
Infanticide is excuseable? EVER?
Can you say with a certainty that those infants were not possessed by
demons?
Killing children is justified because
they might be possessed by demons?
Seriously?
People make movies of it all the time.
Why is that?
What do movies have to do with this?
Movies are the understandings of men, their thoughts played out.
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Pastors starved tot, thinking he was demon-possessed
April 14, 2015
Police say the pastors at a Balch Springs church
starved a 2-year-old boy they said was possessed
by a demon, and later held a ceremony to resurrect
the boy.
Several people told police the boy was given water
four to five times a day, but no food for 25 days
before he died on March 22. A church member tried
to feed the boy, but the pastors scolded her and
forbade her from doing so, according to court
records.
The church, named Iglesia Internacional Jesus es
el Rey, is operated out of a house in the 12300
block of Duke Drive.
The morning of March 22, police said, Meza and three
other people — listed as suspects in court records —
held a ceremony to revive the boy.
A video of the ceremony shows Meza reciting prayers
while holding the boy, whom she refers to as Benjamin,
in her arms.
“In the name of Jesus, I’m utilizing this oil to try
to get him back to life,” she explains in Spanish.
http://tinyurl.com/l2frvlp
Obviously they were not doing this under the authority of God.
God recommended that the disciples fast not those they were trying to
deliver.
And Jesus delivered children and adults instantly, as every believer
who operates in Faith can do. It is part of the authority given to men
in Christ Jesus.
Since Jesus described demonic possession
as a real thing can his followers be blamed
for taking it seriously?
He delivered men from it and showed them how and under what power and
conditions.
So what is the parallel you are attempting to draw here?
Robert
2020-03-08 05:05:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 07 Mar 2020 18:10:28 -0800, tesla sTinker
Post by tesla sTinker
Robert, are you out of your mind? This is a nut house ofyour words.
Get real,, God is only going to forgive those with a child like heart.
The ones that get on their knees, and pray the act of perfect
contrition to Him. To be forgiving for an evil act they have done.
It is not negotiable. AT ALL.... Jesus made it clear, you cannot go
to Heaven without a child like heart. Anotherwords, if your heart is
hiding something, and you have not confessed it to His true priest, or
to His own Holy Body of Christ Himself, then you are doomed to hell.
Its up to you, and each and every own one of you , to clean their own
soul for Him. That is the least He asked for. And is entitled to it
completely He is. IF Not, they do not go there to His Holy Heaven. It
is bad enough that the rich remove the poor peoples money from them,
Stealing, so they can be rich, Having Luxury on earth as Heaven,
stealing it, and then ask for forgiveness of such sins as those, and if
they do not have an intention of never doing it again, (Child Like
Heart) God does not even listen. Your a stupid ass.
Just what, specifically, what is it that you have a problem with.
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On Sat, 07 Mar 2020 09:09:33 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:48:56 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2020 08:30:28 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:02:51 -0600, Mitchell Holman
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Why does he allow evil to exist?
Perhaps to weed out the dissidents, so that everyone in heaven will
be
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like minded. Evil has been judged, but they were allotted some time
before they are to be confined to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
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Instead we mass slaughter and mass
desctruction on his part with no thought
about infants and children and those who
may be faithful to him.
You just might do that. But America has for the most part been
thoughtful about what you consider "innocents" and has made it
part
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of
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our policy of war and the recovery of the countries we warred
with.
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Just my point. If mere mortals can craft
justice systems and even wartime policy to spare
the innocent why can't God?
Innocents?
Yes, innocents. They exist. I know your
mythology includes a universal application
of guilt that justifies genocide, "original
sin", but it is no grounds to kill everyone
at random.
Actually you do not. For 2,000 years we have been under a period of
grace, not law. Since that time while sin remains active in the world
immediate judgment by God has not happened. Jesus said specifically I
did not come to condemn the world, Which is one of the things I have
been pointing out to you while you clamor against the judgment of God
according to the rule of Law and that contract which was fulfilled
2,000 years ago. So why are you still harping on that?
"My contract with my god says I have to kill you".
When it against our people it is an outrage, when
it is done by our people it is "the rule of law".
I understand the scripture, I just find it barbaric.
Based upon what you just said, you are still arguing and old covenant.
The timeframe of which you never lived in and evidently don't
understand.
So why not read it through with the objective idea of understanding
the period in which it was written and the morals of the people of
that day?
I understand the morals of the day.
And I am free to blast them as repugnant
and loathesome. They should NOT be upheld as
morals we should follow, hence my complaint
about any call to embrace "Biblical morality".
Well then, :) you are holding the "sins of the father" unto this
generation. Something that you said you were opposed to.
When I suggest the morals of the day that would have stopped at the
point where a New and Better Covenant was made, at the time of Christ.
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Give me a break. You overplay that hand and choose to
ignore their actions supporting the Gov't in one way or another.
What America did was to forgive the majority and help them get back
on
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track so they could repeat the same military actions years later. Do
you consider that wise?
When did *that* happen?
At the ending of every war we have been in. Who, for instance, was the
major force in rebuilding Germany?
We rebuilt Germany in 1945. When did they
"repeat the same military actions later?"
Are you forgetting WWI?
We didn't rebuild Germany after WWI. Your complaint
about helping them "get back on track so they could repeat
the same military actions years later" doesn't apply to
WWI or WWII
I was wrong on WWI and for that I am sorry, There was no official
plan, however,...
American economic assistance to Germ