Discussion:
OT found in another newsgroup: Grammar
(too old to reply)
chibiabos
2008-09-30 02:16:52 UTC
Permalink
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.

It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?

As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
-chib

...who makes the occasional error in grammar, in speech and in writing,
but who moves on and tries to do better the next time.
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
Lord Vetinari
2008-09-30 03:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?
As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
That's incredible!

It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the fact is,
it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be well received.
Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this mirror out, man...

...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling flames.
Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!

...
Post by chibiabos
...who makes the occasional error in grammar, in speech and in writing,
but who moves on and tries to do better the next time.
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
Enkidu
2008-09-30 03:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other to.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA


You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons,
sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on
water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you
say that we are the ones that need help?
-- Jon Stoll
Pink Freud
2008-09-30 07:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other to.
Did you mean "others to"?
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Pink Freud, Dark Side Of The Couch
----------------------------------------------------------
"I used to hate myself, until I found you."
The Wildhearts
chibiabos
2008-09-30 08:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other to.
Did you mean "others to"?
See? Although I respect Enkidu enormously, when you read that, wasn't
it like hitting a pothole in the road, causing you to lose your
concentration on what he was saying? That was a mere typo, which all of
us make occasionally and can be forgiven in a medium like Usenet. But
if you don't know when to use they're, there, or their in a sentence,
that's a different story. It's laziness more than anything else. You've
just told us all you couldn't be bothered when your third grade English
teacher pointed out the differences. But still you believe a weed that
sprouted in your barren little mind is a precious flower you have to
share with the whole world.

I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general. I
read several books each month for pleasure in addition to the ones I
read for more serious reasons. But my partner's three teenage boys
haven't picked up a book in years that wasn't required by school.
Reading so much has taught me the difference between good prose and
bad. In a novel, for example, most of the grammatical errors have been
cleaned up by the editors, but there is still some atrociously bad
stuff out there (Harry Turtledove comes to mind).

-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
Alex W.
2008-09-30 09:35:37 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some
extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your
tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"?
Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of
lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly
spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take
what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you
for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly,
great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't
place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect
other to.
Did you mean "others to"?
See? Although I respect Enkidu enormously, when you read
that, wasn't
it like hitting a pothole in the road, causing you to lose
your
concentration on what he was saying? That was a mere typo,
which all of
us make occasionally and can be forgiven in a medium like
Usenet.
That may have been a mere typo, but ending a sentence on a
preposition is a grammatical faux-pas up with which one
should not put.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist ....




But
if you don't know when to use they're, there, or their in
a sentence,
that's a different story. It's laziness more than anything
else. You've
just told us all you couldn't be bothered when your third
grade English
teacher pointed out the differences. But still you believe
a weed that
sprouted in your barren little mind is a precious flower
you have to
share with the whole world.
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading
in general. I
read several books each month for pleasure in addition to
the ones I
read for more serious reasons. But my partner's three
teenage boys
haven't picked up a book in years that wasn't required by
school.
Reading so much has taught me the difference between good
prose and
bad. In a novel, for example, most of the grammatical
errors have been
cleaned up by the editors, but there is still some
atrociously bad
stuff out there (Harry Turtledove comes to mind).
If I may suggest a second cause: public spelling.
Advertisers and the press have fallen into the habit of
using variant spelling and grammar, possibly in the mistaken
belief that this will convey a sense of "hipness" or of
being fashionably casual. If linguistic sources which we
implicitly accept as authoritative signal that it is
acceptable to write "rite" or "nite" instead of "right" and
"night", who are we to argue?
p***@hotmail.com
2008-09-30 16:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
In article
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some
extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your
tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"?
Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of
lame spelling
flames. Heh.  Yup, we're all terrible people.  Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly
spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take
what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you
for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly,
great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't
place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect
other to.
Did you mean "others to"?
See? Although I respect Enkidu enormously, when you read
that, wasn't
it like hitting a pothole in the road, causing you to lose
your
concentration on what he was saying? That was a mere typo,
which all of
us make occasionally and can be forgiven in a medium like
Usenet.
That may have been a mere typo, but ending a sentence on a
preposition is a grammatical faux-pas up with which one
should not put.
Sorry, but I couldn't resist ....
But
if you don't know when to use they're, there, or their in
a sentence,
that's a different story. It's laziness more than anything
else. You've
just told us all you couldn't be bothered when your third
grade English
teacher pointed out the differences. But still you believe
a weed that
sprouted in your barren little mind is a precious flower
you have to
share with the whole world.
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading
in general. I
read several books each month for pleasure in addition to
the ones I
read for more serious reasons. But my partner's three
teenage boys
haven't picked up a book in years that wasn't required by
school.
Reading so much has taught me the difference between good
prose and
bad. In a novel, for example, most of the grammatical
errors have been
cleaned up by the editors, but there is still some
atrociously bad
stuff out there (Harry Turtledove comes to mind).
If I may suggest a second cause: public spelling.
Advertisers and the press have fallen into the habit of
using variant spelling and grammar, possibly in the mistaken
belief that this will convey a sense of "hipness" or of
being fashionably casual.  If linguistic sources which we
implicitly accept as authoritative signal that it is
acceptable to write "rite" or "nite" instead of "right" and
"night", who are we to argue?
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 17:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
--
L. Raymond
p***@hotmail.com
2008-09-30 17:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.

It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 18:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
Unfortunately, by the time something has become a big thing, it's
generally too late to change it. But then, the problem with noticing
little things is knowing when it's just stupid to harp on them and when
you can actually make a difference by saying something.

All of which leads to an interesting philosophical question, namely when
do changes in speaking or writing become mainstream? My dad worked with
a guy in the 50's who refused to use words like cab or mob because they
were vulgar abbreviations. Likewise, in an early Nero Wolfe story from
the 40's, Wolfe won't permit the use of "contact" as a verb. I refuse to
use "impact" or "access" as verbs, but I don't criticize people who do
(at least, I really try not to do so) because that's how language
changes, and it's possible no language on earth is more fluid than
American English. On the other hand, I can't sit back and let words be
completely degraded if it means a lessening of precision, or, even
worse, when it's a symptom of an ugly social trend.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up. I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.

As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
--
L. Raymond
Alex W.
2008-09-30 23:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Unfortunately, by the time something has become a big
thing, it's
generally too late to change it. But then, the problem
with noticing
little things is knowing when it's just stupid to harp on
them and when
you can actually make a difference by saying something.
All of which leads to an interesting philosophical
question, namely when
do changes in speaking or writing become mainstream? My
dad worked with
a guy in the 50's who refused to use words like cab or mob
because they
were vulgar abbreviations. Likewise, in an early Nero
Wolfe story from
the 40's, Wolfe won't permit the use of "contact" as a
verb. I refuse to
use "impact" or "access" as verbs, but I don't criticize
people who do
(at least, I really try not to do so) because that's how
language
changes, and it's possible no language on earth is more
fluid than
American English. On the other hand, I can't sit back and
let words be
completely degraded if it means a lessening of precision,
or, even
worse, when it's a symptom of an ugly social trend.
This fluidity is not limited to the American flavour of
English. It is global.

We also need to make the distinction between fads and
genuine long-term changes. In this age of media saturation,
words and phrases may come and be gone again within a few
years.
p***@hotmail.com
2008-10-01 07:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
Unfortunately, by the time something has become a big thing, it's
generally too late to change it.  But then, the problem with noticing
little things is knowing when it's just stupid to harp on them and when
you can actually make a difference by saying something.
Agreed. Sometimes it's tough to decide which battles to fight.
Post by L. Raymond
All of which leads to an interesting philosophical question, namely when
do changes in speaking or writing become mainstream?  My dad worked with
a guy in the 50's who refused to use words like cab or mob because they
were vulgar abbreviations. Likewise, in an early Nero Wolfe story from
the 40's, Wolfe won't permit the use of "contact" as a verb. I refuse to
use "impact" or "access" as verbs, but I don't criticize people who do
(at least, I really try not to do so) because that's how language
changes, and it's possible no language on earth is more fluid than
American English.  On the other hand, I can't sit back and let words be
completely degraded if it means a lessening of precision, or, even
worse, when it's a symptom of an ugly social trend.
This, I understand. In another conversation with my daughter, she was
surprised when I asked her to stop saying "sucks". She didn't even
know that the source of the word was sexual in nature, and was
honestly surprised when I informed her that her grandmother once beat
me black and blue for saying it in front of her... <g>
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up.  I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.
As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
The week after I saw the film for the first time, I was greeted (in
the local mini-mart) by a life-sized cardboard figure of the golfer
`Tiger' Woods proclaiming that Gatorade was now even better because it
contained *more* electrolytes! A major sub-plot in the film is that
the hero keeps the morons from starving to death because he convinces
them to irrigate crops with water instead of Gatorade (of course, the
filmmakers couldn't use the trademarked word, but their substitute is
obvious..<g>). The corporate overlords of the time had convinced
people that if the stuff was good enough for people ("..it's got
electrolytes!.), it would be good for plants as well. The morons all
ask, "..water? Ya mean like from the toilet?", because they'd all been
drinking Gatorade for generations, and the only water they'd ever seen
was in their toilets. When the hero first suggests they spray water on
the crops, one of them says "..I've never seen a tree growing out of a
toilet!"

I really hope our society's not moving in that direction...but then I
recall that everything that scared me in Paddy Chayefsky's "Network"
actually came true.

<sigh>

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
L. Raymond
2008-10-01 16:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by L. Raymond
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up.  I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.
As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
The week after I saw the film for the first time, I was greeted (in
the local mini-mart) by a life-sized cardboard figure of the golfer
`Tiger' Woods proclaiming that Gatorade was now even better because it
contained *more* electrolytes! A major sub-plot in the film is that
the hero keeps the morons from starving to death because he convinces
them to irrigate crops with water instead of Gatorade (of course, the
filmmakers couldn't use the trademarked word, but their substitute is
obvious..<g>).
I read through IMDB's quote section, and I sincerely doubt I could watch
a movie with the language they used. But if I locate a $3 copy or
something I'll have to see it.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I really hope our society's not moving in that direction...but then I
recall that everything that scared me in Paddy Chayefsky's "Network"
actually came true.
Another movie I haven't seen, I'm afraid. Ever read the short story
"The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster? It was written in 1909 but is a
perfect prediction of modern trends. It's almost surreal how he
captures the idea of rehashing others rehashed news and claiming it's
new, the convenience of remote control and how people are willing to be
totally helpless so long as they're comfortable. He also pegs a number
of technological predictions, like TV and fast food.

As for movies like this, have you ever seen "Thank You for Smoking"?
It's a pretty funny show about a spokesman for the tobacco industry who
makes sure people keep smoking.
--
L. Raymond
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 16:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up. I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.
As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
The week after I saw the film for the first time, I was greeted (in
the local mini-mart) by a life-sized cardboard figure of the golfer
`Tiger' Woods proclaiming that Gatorade was now even better because it
contained *more* electrolytes! A major sub-plot in the film is that
the hero keeps the morons from starving to death because he convinces
them to irrigate crops with water instead of Gatorade (of course, the
filmmakers couldn't use the trademarked word, but their substitute is
obvious..<g>).
I read through IMDB's quote section, and I sincerely doubt I could watch
a movie with the language they used. But if I locate a $3 copy or
something I'll have to see it.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I really hope our society's not moving in that direction...but then I
recall that everything that scared me in Paddy Chayefsky's "Network"
actually came true.
Another movie I haven't seen, I'm afraid. Ever read the short story
"The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster? It was written in 1909 but is a
perfect prediction of modern trends. It's almost surreal how he
captures the idea of rehashing others rehashed news and claiming it's
new, the convenience of remote control and how people are willing to be
totally helpless so long as they're comfortable. He also pegs a number
of technological predictions, like TV and fast food.
As for movies like this, have you ever seen "Thank You for Smoking"?
It's a pretty funny show about a spokesman for the tobacco industry who
makes sure people keep smoking.
I really love that one. When I watched it a few months ago, I wasn't
entirely sure what to expect...but it had me rolling.
p***@hotmail.com
2008-10-01 17:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up. I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.
As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
The week after I saw the film for the first time, I was greeted (in
the local mini-mart) by a life-sized cardboard figure of the golfer
`Tiger' Woods proclaiming that Gatorade was now even better because it
contained *more* electrolytes! A major sub-plot in the film is that
the hero keeps the morons from starving to death because he convinces
them to irrigate crops with water instead of Gatorade (of course, the
filmmakers couldn't use the trademarked word, but their substitute is
obvious..<g>).
I read through IMDB's quote section, and I sincerely doubt I could watch
a movie with the language they used.  But if I locate a $3 copy or
something I'll have to see it.
Heh, heh. I grew up on the coast. I used to *be* a sailor in the
summer. I can cut a blue streak with the best of `em...<g>
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I really hope our society's not moving in that direction...but then I
recall that everything that scared me in Paddy Chayefsky's "Network"
actually came true.
Another movie I haven't seen, I'm afraid.  Ever read the short story
"The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster?  It was written in 1909 but is a
perfect prediction of modern trends.  It's almost surreal how he
captures the idea of rehashing others rehashed news and claiming it's
new, the convenience of remote control and how people are willing to be
totally helpless so long as they're comfortable.  He also pegs a number
of technological predictions, like TV and fast food.
Sounds really interesting. I don't ever recall having even heard of
it. Thanks for the tip.
Post by L. Raymond
As for movies like this, have you ever seen "Thank You for Smoking"?
It's a pretty funny show about a spokesman for the tobacco industry who
makes sure people keep smoking.
I haven't seen it, but I've heard wonderful things about it. I *am*
still smoking, but I'm not foolish enough to think it has any
reediming qualities. ;)

-PF, Atl.
etc.
L. Raymond
2008-10-01 18:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by L. Raymond
Another movie I haven't seen, I'm afraid.  Ever read the short story
"The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster?  It was written in 1909 but is a
perfect prediction of modern trends.  It's almost surreal how he
captures the idea of rehashing others rehashed news and claiming it's
new, the convenience of remote control and how people are willing to be
totally helpless so long as they're comfortable.  He also pegs a number
of technological predictions, like TV and fast food.
Sounds really interesting. I don't ever recall having even heard of
it. Thanks for the tip.
OK, here's how it'll work. You keep suggesting movies, and I'll suggest
stories, and eventually we'll find common ground. *smile*

If you can find a collection of his short stories, I highly recommend
them. They're all basically dystopian and oddly prescient. It's weird
how much I love the shorts while being bored mindless by his novels
(yes, this is the Forster who wrote _Howard's End_).
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by L. Raymond
As for movies like this, have you ever seen "Thank You for Smoking"?
It's a pretty funny show about a spokesman for the tobacco industry who
makes sure people keep smoking.
I haven't seen it, but I've heard wonderful things about it. I *am*
still smoking, but I'm not foolish enough to think it has any
reediming qualities. ;)
This is one I picked out of a sale bin for $3, and it would have been
worth it at full price.
--
L. Raymond
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 20:46:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <f152299e-d249-4d87-a248-3c9d7860d8d0
@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, said...
Post by p***@hotmail.com
The corporate overlords of the time had convinced
people that if the stuff was good enough for people ("..it's got
electrolytes!.),
...much like makeup manufacturers have convinced women
that rubbing vitamin-fortified lotions on the dead,
metabolically indifferent outer layers of their skin
will make then look younger.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 15:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
Unfortunately, by the time something has become a big thing, it's
generally too late to change it. But then, the problem with noticing
little things is knowing when it's just stupid to harp on them and when
you can actually make a difference by saying something.
All of which leads to an interesting philosophical question, namely when
do changes in speaking or writing become mainstream? My dad worked with
a guy in the 50's who refused to use words like cab or mob because they
were vulgar abbreviations. Likewise, in an early Nero Wolfe story from
the 40's, Wolfe won't permit the use of "contact" as a verb. I refuse to
use "impact" or "access" as verbs, but I don't criticize people who do
(at least, I really try not to do so) because that's how language
changes, and it's possible no language on earth is more fluid than
American English. On the other hand, I can't sit back and let words be
completely degraded if it means a lessening of precision, or, even
worse, when it's a symptom of an ugly social trend.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up. I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead"; this movie seems to
be slamming things like that.
As an aside, I visited the site of the store where I like to shop to see
if they carry "Idiocracy", and they have a banner ad announcing "This
Weeks Specials".
If you haven't already, read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance
Approach to Punctuation". It's a fun book.
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 20:47:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@40tude.net>,
L. Raymond said...
Post by L. Raymond
I hadn't heard of "Idiocracy" so I had to look it up. I wonder if Judge
isn't a little embarrassed about "Bevis & Butthead";
I always got the impression that Mike Judge was
laughing at Beavis and Butthead, not offering them up
as role models. :)
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Don Martin
2008-10-01 00:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
Be thankful she didn't call you "old-fashion".

-
Enkidu
2008-10-01 02:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there
reall
Post by p***@hotmail.com
y
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
Whait until dirertations are written in leet-speak. Care to read this?

Ph0UR 5(0R3 4|\|D 53\/3|\| '/34R5 490 0UR Ph47|-|3R5 bR0U9|-|7 Ph0R7|-| 0
|\| 7|-|15 (0|\|71|\|3|\|7, 4 |\|3\/\/ |\|4710|\|, (0|\|(31\/3D 1|\|
L1B3R7'/, 4|\|D d3D1(473D 70 7|-|3 pR0P051710|\| 7|-|@ 4LL /\/\3|\| r
(R3473D 3QU4L. |\|0\/\/ \/\/3 r 3|\|9493D 1|\| 4 9R3@ (1\/1L \/\/4R,
73571|\|9 \/\/|-|37|-|3R 7|-|@ |\|4710|\|, 0R 4|\|'/ |\|4710|\| 50 (0|\|
(31\/3D 4|\|D 50 d3D1(473D, (4|\| L0|\|9 3|\|DUR3. \/\/3 r /\/\37 0|\| 4
9R3@ b477L3-Ph13LD 0Ph 7|-|@ \/\/4R. \/\/3 |-|4\/3 (0/\/\3 70 d3D1(473 4
p0R710|\| 0Ph 7|-|@ Ph13LD, 45 4 Ph1|\|4L r3571|\|9 pL4(3 Ph0R 7|-|053 \/
\/|-|0 |-|3R3 94\/3 7|-|31R L1\/35 7|-|@ 7|-|@ |\|4710|\| /\/\19|-|7 L1
\/3. 17 15 4L70937|-|3R Ph1771|\|9 4|\|D pR0P3R 7|-|@ \/\/3 5|-|0ULD d0 7
|-|15. bU7, 1|\| 4 L4R93R 53|\|53, \/\/3 (4|\| |\|07 d3D1(473 -- \/\/3 (4
|\| |\|07 (0|\|53(R473 -- \/\/3 (4|\| |\|07 |-|4LL0\/\/ -- 7|-|15 9R0U|
\|D. 7|-|3 bR4\/3 /\/\3|\|, L1\/1|\|9 4|\|D d34D, \/\/|-|0 57RU99L3D |-|
3R3, |-|4\/3 (0|\|53(R473D 17, Ph4R 4B0\/3 0UR p00R p0\/\/3R 70 4DD 0R
d37R4(7. 7|-|3 \/\/0RLD \/\/1LL L177L3 |\|073, |\|0R L0|\|9 r3/\/\3/\/
\B3R \/\/|-|@ \/\/3 54'/ |-|3R3, bU7 17 (4|\| |\|3\/3R Ph0R937 \/\/|-|@ 7
|-|3'/ d1D |-|3R3. 17 15 Ph0R U5 7|-|3 L1\/1|\|9, r47|-|3R, 70 b3 d3D1
(473D |-|3R3 70 7|-|3 U|\|Ph1|\|15|-|3D \/\/0R|< \/\/|-|1(|-| 7|-|3'/ \/
\/|-|0 Ph0U9|-|7 |-|3R3 |-|4\/3 7|-|U5 Ph4R 50 |\|0BL'/ 4D\/4|\|(3D. 17
15 r47|-|3R Ph0R U5 70 b3 |-|3R3 d3D1(473D 70 7|-|3 9R3@ 745|< r3/\/\41|
\|1|\|9 b3Ph0R3 U5 -- 7|-|@ PhR0/\/\ 7|-|353 |-|0|\|0R3D d34D \/\/3 74|<3
1|\|(R3453D d3\/0710|\| 70 7|-|@ (4U53 Ph0R \/\/|-|1(|-| 7|-|3'/ 94\/3 7
|-|3 L457 PhULL /\/\345UR3 0Ph d3\/0710|\| -- 7|-|@ \/\/3 |-|3R3 |-|19|-
|L'/ r350L\/3 7|-|@ 7|-|353 d34D 5|-|4LL |\|07 |-|4\/3 d13D 1|\| \/41|\|
-- 7|-|@ 7|-|15 |\|4710|\|, U|\|D3R 90D, 5|-|4LL |-|4\/3 4 |\|3\/\/ b1R7
|-| 0Ph PhR33D0/\/\ -- 4|\|D 7|-|@ 90\/3R|\|/\/\3|\|7 0Ph 7|-|3 p30PL3,
b'/ 7|-|3 p30PL3, Ph0R 7|-|3 p30PL3, 5|-|4LL |\|07 p3R15|-| PhR0/\/\ 7|-|
3 34R7|-|.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA

Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
-Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992
L. Raymond
2008-10-01 03:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides
dropping
Post by p***@hotmail.com
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there
reall
Post by p***@hotmail.com
y
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
Whait until dirertations are written in leet-speak. Care to read this?
Is that real? That is, is there honestly a group of people who think
it's easier to write 490 rather than "ago"? I'm familiar with the
idiots who use numbers for letters, but that one seems excessive.
--
L. Raymond
DuhIdiot
2008-10-01 11:18:28 UTC
Permalink
L. Raymond, on 30 Sep 2008, in alt.atheism, decided this was a worthy
<snip>
Post by L. Raymond
Post by Enkidu
Whait until dirertations are written in leet-speak. Care to read this?
Is that real? That is, is there honestly a group of people who think
it's easier to write 490 rather than "ago"? I'm familiar with the
idiots who use numbers for letters, but that one seems excessive.
God pop into existence and help us all, apparently so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

Absolute damning proof that we in developed countries have too much leisure
time now.
--
J. B. Mashburn, the sad left tail of the bell curve
alt.atheist #2295, http://questioner.www2.50megs.com/list1.html
EAC Chief Of Maintenance for God's cloaking device - 14 billion years and
not one glitch!
"What a day, if you can look it in the face and hold your vomit." - Faith
No More
Enkidu
2008-10-01 13:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
news:40576791-fb05-4558-97f0-659fde91f6d2
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that.
After looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers
on the bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever
done is give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising.  Besides
dropping
Post by p***@hotmail.com
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want,
advertisers have popularized that word I currently hate more than
any other, "creme".  Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream"
unless there
reall
Post by p***@hotmail.com
y
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme
to get around the prohibition.  Now, I see creme conditioners in
the hair aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to
describe some pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to
screw up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they
inflict every day.
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our
very eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing
it, and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
Whait until dirertations are written in leet-speak. Care to read this?
Is that real? That is, is there honestly a group of people who think
it's easier to write 490 rather than "ago"? I'm familiar with the
idiots who use numbers for letters, but that one seems excessive.
Cell phones.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA




"I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment
that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders."
- - Robert Green Ingersoll
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 16:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides
dropping
Post by p***@hotmail.com
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there
reall
Post by p***@hotmail.com
y
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
Interesting. I usually look at the big things corporations do to screw
up society. I hadn't thought about the small damages they inflict
every day.
It's like Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is coming true in front of our very
eyes. My pet bugaboo at the moment is still the possessive case
instead of the plural. I got on my daughter's case once for doing it,
and she called me "old-fashioned". Grrr.
Whait until dirertations are written in leet-speak. Care to read this?
Ph0UR 5(0R3 4|\|D 53\/3|\| '/34R5 490 0UR Ph47|-|3R5 bR0U9|-|7 Ph0R7|-| 0
'tain't too hard.

What would Abe say about it, though?
c***@optonline.net
2008-09-30 17:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
American labelling is screwey and misleading.

Anywhere else Italian Salami means salami from Italy, and Swiss cheese
means cheese from Switzerland.

So that I've seen Swiss Gruyere (originally a French cheese) labelled
"Genuine Switzerland Swiss cheese from Switzerland".

And Jaarlsberg (from Norway) as "Norwegian Swiss".
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 18:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@optonline.net
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
American labelling is screwey and misleading.
Not misleading in these cases, just not precise. Swiss is recognized by
most people as a style of cheese, not as a specific cheese coming from
Switzerland. Ditto Italian sausage or salami. It's thought of as a
meat in the style of sausage or salami made by Italian.

Don't forget, these are naming conventions that date from when "foreign"
food was being cooked locally by immigrants, so Italian sausage was the
stuff made by Luigi on the corner, not imported from Italy.
Post by c***@optonline.net
So that I've seen Swiss Gruyere (originally a French cheese) labelled
"Genuine Switzerland Swiss cheese from Switzerland".
That one is definitely bizarre.

I know the French have gotten really strict about this in terms of wine
names, so that champagne can only be used to describe wine actually from
the region. That bothers me because I had finally learned what sort of
wines to use for cooking, and the last time I tried to buy burgundy the
clerk had no idea what I meant. We needed the manager to translate it
into pinot gris or whatever it is now.
--
L. Raymond
Alex W.
2008-09-30 23:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
I know the French have gotten really strict about this in
terms of wine
names, so that champagne can only be used to describe wine
actually from
the region. That bothers me because I had finally learned
what sort of
wines to use for cooking, and the last time I tried to buy
burgundy the
clerk had no idea what I meant. We needed the manager to
translate it
into pinot gris or whatever it is now.
This is not limited to the French. All over Europe, food
that is specifically associated with a particular region or
town can apply -- and will usually be granted -- legal
protection for its name. Parma ham, for instance, must be
manufactured in Parma if it wants to use the label.

The French champagne houses are definitely the most
aggressive in this respect, though: they have taken English
makers of a sparkling elderflower cordial to court for using
the word "champagne" on the label, and they are suing a
Swiss village for using its name "Champagne" on local white
wine and cookies.
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 16:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@optonline.net
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
American labelling is screwey and misleading.
Like that isn't true for other countries? HAH!
Post by c***@optonline.net
Anywhere else Italian Salami means salami from Italy, and Swiss cheese
means cheese from Switzerland.
It really depends on whether someone pushed for, and got, a legal
definition. Generally, though, in the U.S., it'll be "Italian-style Salami"
if it isn't from Italy. It's all the admen's fault.
Post by c***@optonline.net
So that I've seen Swiss Gruyere (originally a French cheese) labelled
"Genuine Switzerland Swiss cheese from Switzerland".
Gruyère cheese originated in....Gruyère, Switzerland. Oops.
Post by c***@optonline.net
And Jaarlsberg (from Norway) as "Norwegian Swiss".
*snort* Gotta wonder about some people. I guess they either can't see how
goofy their labels are, or maybe they're doing it deliberately, to fuck with
pedants.

I wish I had some good cheese with me right now...but they changed policy,
and we're not allowed to bring in ANY food-stuff anymore.
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-02 01:23:06 UTC
Permalink
In article <6mn4e4d6b1cqioif78ik7v2csofng1ip6v@
4ax.com>, said...
Post by c***@optonline.net
American labelling is screwey and misleading.
People from the UK would expect Folian Cheese to come
from Folia.

Americans would expect Folian Cheese to be
cheese made in the manner originated by the Folians,
though not necessarily produced in Folia itself.

This is what got my friend in trouble when he visited
Ireland and asked a shop owner for "American cheese,"
by which he meant a combination of milk, whey, etc.,
which is processed into singly wrapped slices. The
Irish owners of the shop, though, assumed he was
asking for cheese made in America, and took offense at
his refusal of the homemade cheeses, and told him to
take his request to some other shop. :)
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 15:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have a friend at work who made a clever remark about that. After
looking at some of the very pretty (but illegible) flyers on the
bulletin board, he said "..all desktop publishing has ever done is
give the illiterate the illusion of literacy."
I hate to see people ape the spelling of advertising. Besides dropping
letters or shortening words to get the layout they want, advertisers
have popularized that word I currently hate more than any other,
"creme". Once the FDA prohibited the use of "cream" unless there really
was actual dairy cream in the product, companies switched to creme to
get around the prohibition. Now, I see creme conditioners in the hair
aisle and even worse, "cremey" was on a bakery sign to describe some
pastry filling.
*sigh* Creme is a real word. OED gives examples as far back as 1303 CE.
Oops.
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 20:32:26 UTC
Permalink
In article <300920080133178981%***@nospam.com>,
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
My wife teaches at a university. Recently she posed an
ethical dilemma to her class in the form of a scenario
involving five players in a business situation. She
then asked students to write down the most
objectionable and least objectionable of the people
involved.

One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"

*I* would have replied, "It means you're not prepared
for college, son." My wife, however, was polite about
it. :)
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
c***@optonline.net
2008-10-01 20:48:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:32:26 -0400, Brian E. Clark
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
My wife teaches at a university. Recently she posed an
ethical dilemma to her class in the form of a scenario
involving five players in a business situation. She
then asked students to write down the most
objectionable and least objectionable of the people
involved.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
*I* would have replied, "It means you're not prepared
for college, son." My wife, however, was polite about
it. :)
Bad writing and bad reading are just part of the problem. There are
also ignorance, general lack of logic, critical thinking etc. All part
of the dumbing down of the nation.
Codebreaker
2008-10-03 17:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Post by Brian E. Clark
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-03 17:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?


Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?



-- cary
Codebreaker
2008-10-03 18:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Post by Cary Kittrell
-- cary
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-03 18:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in genera=
l.
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Funny, you get my occupation wrong too.

Have you EVER sent a post without at least one
howler in it?



--cary
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Cary Kittrell
-- cary
Codebreaker
2008-10-03 19:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in genera=
l.
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
 This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Funny, you get my occupation wrong too.
Have you EVER sent a post without at least one
howler in it?
So???? What does this mean in the real life?
What is he bottom line?
I am still the right whistleblower in the hand of God
Post by Cary Kittrell
--cary
Post by Cary Kittrell
-- cary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-03 19:48:14 UTC
Permalink
oups=3D
e> wro=3D
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in ge=
nera=3D
Post by Cary Kittrell
l.
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
=A0This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Funny, you get my occupation wrong too.
Have you EVER sent a post without at least one
howler in it?
So???? What does this mean in the real life?
That you're a bumbler?
What is he bottom line?
I am still the right whistleblower in the hand of God
In that case: blow me.


-- cary
Post by Cary Kittrell
--cary
Post by Cary Kittrell
-- cary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alex W.
2008-10-04 01:27:11 UTC
Permalink
In article
Codebreaker
Post by Codebreaker
What is he bottom line?
I am still the right whistleblower in the hand of God
In that case: blow me.
Sorry, but ... EWWWWWWWWW.....
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cary Kittrell
oups=3D
e> wro=3D
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in ge=
nera=3D
Post by Cary Kittrell
l.
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
=A0This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Funny, you get my occupation wrong too.
Have you EVER sent a post without at least one
howler in it?
So???? What does this mean in the real life?
That you're a bumbler?
What is he bottom line?
I am still the right whistleblower in the hand of God
In that case: blow me.
No, no, god blows *him*...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in genera=
l.
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
Funny, you get my occupation wrong too.
Have you EVER sent a post without at least one
howler in it?
So???? What does this mean in the real life?
What is he bottom line?
I am still the right whistleblower in the hand of God
Well, tell god to grip you a little tighter and move his hand...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
This assronomer really thinks I can't spell the word BRAGGART.
It is my freedom, I use it the way I want. What part of this you keep
missing?
Again, I am free from
grammatical rules though some assronomers may not like it.
'Parently you also freed yourself from the rules of sanity...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cary Kittrell
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
chibiabos said...
Post by chibiabos
I attribute much of bad writing to the decline in reading in general.
One student flung his hand up and asked, "What does
'objectionable' mean?"
Were you there, LIAR and BRAGGAR as well?
Brian, are you just going to let him call
you a "braggar" like that?
Or will you instead chip in and help us
buy him a dictionary?
I thought he said "bagger"?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Enkidu
2008-09-30 13:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will
be well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check
this mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take
the time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's
not worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much
value on the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other
to.
Did you mean "others to"?
Indeed! Didn't that leap off the screen at you, while "spelt," a unsusual
spelling variant these days, didn't? Now think back to some of the posts
we've seen here. There used for they're, their, and there as if they were
all one word, alot used a lot, etc. Those are as jarring as all upper
case.

If one missing 's at the very end catches you like a speed bump on the
freeway, a post full of sloppy, careless, or ignorant errors shows me a
the author can't or won't put any effort into clear communication, and
most likely has little to communicate.

It's interesting that ending on a preposition didn't bother you, but
that's rather common in English. It felt odd and wrong to write it that
way.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA

You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons,
sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on
water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you
say that we are the ones that need help?
-- Jon Stoll
Pink Freud
2008-09-30 20:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enkidu
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will
be well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check
this mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take
the time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's
not worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much
value on the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other
to.
Did you mean "others to"?
Indeed! Didn't that leap off the screen at you, while "spelt," a unsusual
spelling variant these days, didn't? Now think back to some of the posts
we've seen here. There used for they're, their, and there as if they were
all one word, alot used a lot, etc. Those are as jarring as all upper
case.
If one missing 's at the very end catches you like a speed bump on the
freeway, a post full of sloppy, careless, or ignorant errors shows me a
the author can't or won't put any effort into clear communication, and
most likely has little to communicate.
It's interesting that ending on a preposition didn't bother you, but
that's rather common in English. It felt odd and wrong to write it that
way.
I don't even know the technical terms, to be honest. I read a lot, and
always have, and I mostly recognise "what's right" and "what's not"
instinctively.

Yeah, yeah. "It shows!". I'll just get that one out of the way straight off.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Pink Freud, Dark Side Of The Couch
----------------------------------------------------------
"I used to hate myself, until I found you."
The Wildhearts
Lord Vetinari
2008-09-30 16:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be
well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this
mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take the
time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's not
worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much value on
the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other to.
Then you just carry on, flame the fuck out of everyone who posts without
perfect english.

The point is, we want to _encourage_ illiterates to practice their english,
and if you really have that much difficulty reading their posts, then
consider the likelihood that _you_ are failing worse than they are. Me, I
take pride in being able to read nearly any handwriting, and parse most
things written in, or near english.

Face it, having a shit-fit over it isn't going to change a fucking thing for
positive. At best, you convince a few people that you're unreasonable. I'm
not saying that assholes who're also illiterate shouldn't have their
illiteracy shoved in their faces, though.
Enkidu
2008-10-01 01:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Vetinari
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will
be well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check
this mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take
the time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's
not worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much
value on the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other
to.
Then you just carry on, flame the fuck out of everyone who posts
without perfect english.
Agreed. But how do you point out to someone that his poor spelling and
grammar not only detract from his message, they convey a different
message entirely, a message that the writer can't string words together
into a coherent idea so his text is not worth reading?
Post by Lord Vetinari
The point is, we want to _encourage_ illiterates to practice their
english, and if you really have that much difficulty reading their
posts, then consider the likelihood that _you_ are failing worse than
they are. Me, I take pride in being able to read nearly any
handwriting, and parse most things written in, or near english.
And how do you encourage them to practice? I don't see a way.
Post by Lord Vetinari
Face it, having a shit-fit over it isn't going to change a fucking
thing for positive. At best, you convince a few people that you're
unreasonable. I'm not saying that assholes who're also illiterate
shouldn't have their illiteracy shoved in their faces, though.
I'm not having a shit-fit over an illiterate post, I'm justifying totally
ignoring illiterate posts.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA

If you do not believe in a personal God the question: "What is the
purpose of life?" is unaskable and unanswerable.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
Lord Vetinari
2008-10-01 15:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the
fact is, it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will
be well received. Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check
this mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling
flames. Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
It's not unreasonable to expect well written, correctly spelt, and
grammatically correct text. If you want people to take what you read
seriously, if what you say is important enough to you for you to take
the time and trouble to say it clearly and correctly, great. If it's
not worth your trouble to write correctly, if you don't place much
value on the ideas you're trying to communicate, don't expect other
to.
Then you just carry on, flame the fuck out of everyone who posts
without perfect english.
Agreed. But how do you point out to someone that his poor spelling and
grammar not only detract from his message, they convey a different
message entirely, a message that the writer can't string words together
into a coherent idea so his text is not worth reading?
I suppose you _could_ just put a shot across his bow.
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
The point is, we want to _encourage_ illiterates to practice their
english, and if you really have that much difficulty reading their
posts, then consider the likelihood that _you_ are failing worse than
they are. Me, I take pride in being able to read nearly any
handwriting, and parse most things written in, or near english.
And how do you encourage them to practice? I don't see a way.
Just because we can't think of anything just now, doesn't mean we won't
think of something in the near future, eh? Hmm...could try pointing out to
any that post something like a real thought, though lacking in literacy,
that they'd be taken more seriously if they were to improve their
writing...but then, people really don't like to be reminded that they're not
entirely literate. For that matter, most people think that their level of
literacy is higher than it really is.
Post by Enkidu
Post by Lord Vetinari
Face it, having a shit-fit over it isn't going to change a fucking
thing for positive. At best, you convince a few people that you're
unreasonable. I'm not saying that assholes who're also illiterate
shouldn't have their illiteracy shoved in their faces, though.
I'm not having a shit-fit over an illiterate post, I'm justifying totally
ignoring illiterate posts.
It's funny, but I was thinking about it on my way in to work this morning,
and that's pretty much what I concluded. Heh.

Now, can it be entirely justified, or not?
chibiabos
2008-09-30 08:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Vetinari
That's incredible!
It doesn't matter that I feel the same way to some extent, but the fact is,
it is surprising that you'd believe that your tirade will be well received.
Ever run across the term "netkkkop"? Hey, check this mirror out, man...
...on the other hand, I've certainly been guilty of lame spelling flames.
Heh. Yup, we're all terrible people. Yay!
I'm not trying to play netkkkop, really. I'm just saying that if you
can't use the tools properly don't expect us to buy your products
because the finished goods are likely to be of inferior quality.

I generally avoid spelling flames, too. But sometimes I can't. A recent
statement by Duke couldn't be resisted for that reason. The statement
itself was nonsense, made larger by his incorrect use of an apostrophe
in a possessive pronoun. I could almost (heaven help me) understand
what he said until I got to that jarring grammatical error, then I
threw my hands up in frustration and anger and I let him know about it.


I won't call somebody on a mere typo. We're rushing to get something in
a thread and it's easy to miss something that a spell-checker doesn't
catch, so they're forgivable as long as they don't change the meaning
of what we were trying to say. But dumb mistakes like the misuse of
apostrophes in possessive pronouns are a different matter.

I feel a little like Oscar Wilde when he wrote in _Lady Windemere's
Fan_:

DUCHESS OF BERWICK. What does he mean? Do, as a concession to my poor
wits, Lord Darlington, just explain to me what you really mean.

LORD DARLINGTON. I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be
intelligible is to be found out.

-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 16:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by chibiabos
I'm not trying to play netkkkop, really. I'm just saying that if you
can't use the tools properly don't expect us to buy your products
because the finished goods are likely to be of inferior quality.
I'm with you 100%. If I feel comfortable with someone I may make a joke
out of a typo or misused word, but I have kill filed plenty of folks
simply because they're illiterate.

And it's not just others. If I'm online for some reason while I'm
tired, I try not to post anything because that's when I'll use homonyms
and not catch it, then the next day I'm embarrassed to see an its/it's
error.
Post by chibiabos
I generally avoid spelling flames, too. But sometimes I can't. A recent
statement by Duke couldn't be resisted for that reason. The statement
itself was nonsense, made larger by his incorrect use of an apostrophe
in a possessive pronoun. I could almost (heaven help me) understand
what he said until I got to that jarring grammatical error, then I
threw my hands up in frustration and anger and I let him know about it.
I understand completely. We all have our breaking points. It can be
very, very hard not to call someone on how something was written rather
than what was said.
Post by chibiabos
I won't call somebody on a mere typo. We're rushing to get something in
a thread and it's easy to miss something that a spell-checker doesn't
catch, so they're forgivable as long as they don't change the meaning
of what we were trying to say. But dumb mistakes like the misuse of
apostrophes in possessive pronouns are a different matter.
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think something needs to
be said.
--
L. Raymond
c***@optonline.net
2008-09-30 17:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think something needs to
be said.
That's not new. When I was a kid I knew the difference between apples
and apple's even though the greengrocer didn't - more than fifty years
ago.
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 17:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@optonline.net
Post by L. Raymond
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think something needs to
be said.
That's not new. When I was a kid I knew the difference between apples
and apple's even though the greengrocer didn't - more than fifty years
ago.
I didn't mean to suggest screw ups like that are new; I've seen plenty
of old photos showing similar errors in small hand printed signs. I do
think it's much, much more pervasive now, and that it's become
acceptable to the majority of people, and that it never would have been
on professionally produced signs, though. If that's wrong, then I'll
just bang my head in silence for a bit.
--
L. Raymond
AZ Nomad
2008-09-30 17:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
I understand completely. We all have our breaking points. It can be
very, very hard not to call someone on how something was written rather
than what was said.
Post by chibiabos
I won't call somebody on a mere typo. We're rushing to get something in
a thread and it's easy to miss something that a spell-checker doesn't
catch, so they're forgivable as long as they don't change the meaning
of what we were trying to say. But dumb mistakes like the misuse of
apostrophes in possessive pronouns are a different matter.
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think something needs to
be said.
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Kenny McCormack
2008-09-30 19:51:32 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net>,
AZ Nomad <***@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.

The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true or
not, but it sounds reasonable.

The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.

However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle, so
people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
AZ Nomad
2008-09-30 20:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.
The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true or
not, but it sounds reasonable.
The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.
However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle, so
people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
Perhaps, but saying "I could care less" is not.
To say that one could care less indicates that one does indeed care.
Cary Kittrell
2008-09-30 20:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Xref: news.arizona.edu alt.atheism:2006623
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.
The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true or
not, but it sounds reasonable.
The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.
However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle, so
people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
Perhaps, but saying "I could care less" is not.
To say that one could care less indicates that one does indeed care.
But nonetheless, linguistic constructs do mean whatever everyone
understands them to. "Yeah, THAT's going to happen" logically
indicates your belief that something will happen -- and yet
everyone understands that it indicates precisely the opposite.
Connotation trumps denotation.

And no one literally expects me to eat my hat if I'm wrong.

-- cary
Frank Mayhar
2008-09-30 21:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cary Kittrell
And no one literally expects me to eat my hat if I'm wrong.
*raises eyebrow*

_No_ one?
--
Frank Mayhar ***@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
http://www.zazzle.com/fmayhar*
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 21:04:00 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@ip70-176-155-
130.ph.ph.cox.net>, AZ Nomad said...
Post by AZ Nomad
Perhaps, but saying "I could care less" is not.
To say that one could care less indicates that one does indeed care.
Well, I've heard people say, "If I could go back in a
machine, I'd do things differently." I know perfectly
well that by "machine" the mean "TIME machine," even
though that part has been left out.

Likewise, when someone says, "I could care less," my
mind translates this as, "As if I could care less."
It's an American idiom, so far as I'm concerned.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
AZ Nomad
2008-10-01 21:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
130.ph.ph.cox.net>, AZ Nomad said...
Post by AZ Nomad
Perhaps, but saying "I could care less" is not.
To say that one could care less indicates that one does indeed care.
Well, I've heard people say, "If I could go back in a
machine, I'd do things differently." I know perfectly
well that by "machine" the mean "TIME machine," even
though that part has been left out.
Likewise, when someone says, "I could care less," my
mind translates this as, "As if I could care less."
It's an American idiom, so far as I'm concerned.
I translate it to a person who can't tell the difference between the words
could and couldn't.
AZ Nomad
2008-10-03 16:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by Brian E. Clark
130.ph.ph.cox.net>, AZ Nomad said...
Post by AZ Nomad
Perhaps, but saying "I could care less" is not.
To say that one could care less indicates that one does indeed care.
Well, I've heard people say, "If I could go back in a
machine, I'd do things differently." I know perfectly
well that by "machine" the mean "TIME machine," even
though that part has been left out.
Likewise, when someone says, "I could care less," my
mind translates this as, "As if I could care less."
It's an American idiom, so far as I'm concerned.
I translate it to a person who can't tell the difference between the words
could and couldn't.
Going further, many people don't understand logical constructs.
For example, I just got off a thread in another newsgroup where somebody
said "I've never seen A, or B or C"
I pointed out that I see "B or C" almost every time.
His reply was that it wasn't what he said. He said he didn't see A.
I pointed out again that I wasn't taking exception to A, just that I
see B and C all the time.

He then went back to A, said I didn't read his statement at which point
I had to explain what the word "or" means.


I see it even in the professional workplace working in software developer.
I recall a heated argument between a program manager and a QA engineer and
I about a requirement and how it would be tested. He had risen to a senior
position and didn't understand what "or" means.

I have a current coworker from India who simply can not understand the phrase
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary
and those who don't."
Pink Freud
2008-09-30 20:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.
The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true or
not, but it sounds reasonable.
The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.
However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle, so
people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
It's always been "I couldn't care less." for me for as long as I can
remember. I'm from the UK; the first time I heard "I could care less" was as
an Americanism. I always assumed the phrase was simply an Americanism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Pink Freud, Dark Side Of The Couch
----------------------------------------------------------
"I used to hate myself, until I found you."
The Wildhearts
Fred Stone
2008-09-30 20:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I
rarely bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a
mistake are usually also incapable of understanding the difference
between the words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.
The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true
or not, but it sounds reasonable.
The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.
However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle,
so people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
It's always been "I couldn't care less." for me for as long as I can
remember. I'm from the UK; the first time I heard "I could care less"
was as an Americanism. I always assumed the phrase was simply an
Americanism.
I always thought that it was said ironically.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know what they said? Well some of it was true!"
c***@optonline.net
2008-09-30 21:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pink Freud
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by AZ Nomad
I feel the same way with certain logic errors. Any time I hear
somebody utter "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care
less", they've drop two social rungs in my opinion. They might as
well have written buffoon in giant letters on their forehead. I rarely
bother correcting such guffaws; the people who make such a mistake are
usually also incapable of understanding the difference between the
words could and couldn't.
Ahem. This one I can explain.
The explanation given below is from something I read quite some time
ago, which seemed trustworthy to me. I don't know if it is 100% true or
not, but it sounds reasonable.
The expression started out as "... as if I could care less".
Meaning that I could not care less - that my level of caring was at a
global minimum.
However, over time, the "as if" part got dropped/lost in the shuffle, so
people were saying "I could care less". Someone noticed that this
didn't make any sense, so they changed it to "I couldn't care less".
But, technically, "as if I could care less" is still correct.
It's always been "I couldn't care less." for me for as long as I can
remember. I'm from the UK; the first time I heard "I could care less" was as
an Americanism. I always assumed the phrase was simply an Americanism.
Likewise.
L. Raymond
2008-09-30 22:11:56 UTC
Permalink
They might as well have written buffoon in giant letters on
their forehead. I rarely bother correcting such guffaws; the
people who make such a mistake are usually also incapable of
understanding the difference between the words could and
couldn't.
Or the words "guffaw" and "gaffe"?
--
L. Raymond
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 21:03:40 UTC
Permalink
In article <qw6xozg0r58x.83kcssjblmdw$.dlg@
40tude.net>, L. Raymond said...
Post by L. Raymond
They might as well have written buffoon in giant letters on
their forehead. I rarely bother correcting such guffaws; the
people who make such a mistake are usually also incapable of
understanding the difference between the words could and
couldn't.
Or the words "guffaw" and "gaffe"?
If you avoid making too many gaffes, you will guffaw
in life.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
L. Raymond
2008-10-01 22:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
L. Raymond said...
A.Z. Nomad said...
They might as well have written buffoon in giant letters on
their forehead. I rarely bother correcting such guffaws; the
people who make such a mistake are usually also incapable of
understanding the difference between the words could and
couldn't.
Or the words "guffaw" and "gaffe"?
If you avoid making too many gaffes, you will guffaw
in life.
That's the sort of mistake I generally ignore, but it's sort of like
someone's misspelling something while writing a spelling flame. It's
hard to resist.
--
L. Raymond
Alex W.
2008-09-30 23:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by L. Raymond
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means
seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage
is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think
something needs to
be said.
It is.

May I recommend "Eats Shoots and Leaves" by Lynne Truss, one
British journalist's exasperated and highly amusing rant at
bad punctuation and grammar.
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 20:58:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <pkn5o899qnnl.1h6vhhbtu2sha.dlg@
40tude.net>, L. Raymond said...
Post by L. Raymond
It's gotten to the point that driving down a street means seeing a dozen
signs with apostrophes in plural words; when this garbage is so
widespread it's oozing into the real world, I think something needs to
be said.
Seen at a local restaurant:

We Do Kid's Partys!

That's two strikes with one swing. Below was this:

Try our fresh pumkin pie.

Swing and a miss, and the batter is out.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
DuhIdiot
2008-09-30 13:34:36 UTC
Permalink
chibiabos, on 29 Sep 2008, in alt.atheism, decided this was a worthy use of
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
I agree with the sentiments, but is "succinctly" really your adverb here?
It's 100 lines long.

<snip interesting stuff>
--
J. B. Mashburn, the sad left tail of the bell curve
alt.atheist #2295, http://questioner.www2.50megs.com/list1.html
EAC Chief Of Maintenance for God's cloaking device - 14 billion years and
not one glitch!
"What a day, if you can look it in the face and hold your vomit." - Faith
No More
chibiabos
2008-09-30 23:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by DuhIdiot
chibiabos, on 29 Sep 2008, in alt.atheism, decided this was a worthy use of
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
I agree with the sentiments, but is "succinctly" really your adverb here?
It's 100 lines long.
<snip interesting stuff>
You're right. Words have meanings and we should use them precisely.
It's succinct only in the sense that it could have been 1000 lines
long. But perhaps a better word would have been 'accurately.'

-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middle-Aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
Pink Freud
2008-09-30 22:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker,
Eye half a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

Sauce: Unknown
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Pink Freud, Dark Side Of The Couch
----------------------------------------------------------
"I used to hate myself, until I found you."
The Wildhearts
Codebreaker
2008-09-30 23:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?
As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
I am a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Post by chibiabos
-chib
...who makes the occasional error in grammar, in speech and in writing,
but who moves on and tries to do better the next time.
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
paul
2008-09-30 23:59:33 UTC
Permalink
anal rententive
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?
As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
I am a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Post by chibiabos
-chib
...who makes the occasional error in grammar, in speech and in writing,
but who moves on and tries to do better the next time.
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
chibiabos
2008-10-01 01:01:22 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Codebreaker
I am a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
You are free from most things humans find acceptable, including sanity.

-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
p***@hotmail.com
2008-10-01 17:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?
As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
I am  a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
ROFL! I'm gonna set that to music and call it the "Battle Hymn of The
Illiterate".



-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
lorad
2008-10-01 20:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
I am a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Didn't you actually mean to say that your were "a fervent *proponent*
of freedom *from* Grammar" ?
Brian E. Clark
2008-10-01 21:15:33 UTC
Permalink
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Michelle Malkin
2008-10-02 09:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
Codebreaker
2008-10-03 16:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
Call me up whenever you need it.
I know best how to make you groan all night long.
Nobody else can do it even with COMMA.
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-03 16:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Michelle Malkin
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
Is it a penicillin-resistant strain? If so,
you might want to get that looked at right away.
Post by Codebreaker
Call me up whenever you need it.
I know best how to make you groan all night long.
Oh, you don't have to even be in the same
state to have that effect.
Post by Codebreaker
Nobody else can do it even with COMMA.
I believe you misspelled "coma".


-- cary
Michelle Malkin
2008-10-03 19:31:49 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
Is it a penicillin-resistant strain? If so,
you might want to get that looked at right away.
He probably doesn't believe in medicine.
Post by Codebreaker
Call me up whenever you need it.
I know best how to make you groan all night long.
Oh, you don't have to even be in the same
state to have that effect.
His messages are enough to make everyone groan
at how childish they are.
Post by Codebreaker
Nobody else can do it even with COMMA.
English not first language for Codebreaker, is?
I believe you misspelled "coma".
Considering that he's halfway in one, already, it's
a bit difficult for him to check his grammar and
spelling and remember to breathe in and out at
the same time. Poor Codebreaker is in bad shape.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
He's freed himself from the oppressive bonds and shackles of syntax and
spelling. Next up, freeing himself from those whimsical assignments of
"meanings" to "words"...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Michelle Malkin
2008-10-04 18:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Michelle Malkin
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
He's freed himself from the oppressive bonds and shackles of syntax and
spelling. Next up, freeing himself from those whimsical assignments of
"meanings" to "words"...
Being free of all but his last gray
brain cell 'helps' him immeasureably.
Not being able to think frees him
from having to do anything but
spew nonsense. This, of course,
makes him an object of pity and
derision to everyone but himself.
Sad, but it does convince him that
he should come out from under his
bridge to get the attention he so
woefully craves - even if it is
negative attention.

Of course, if he's faking all this, it
still doesn't look good for him. Too
much time on his hands, anger
and sociopathic tendencies are not
a good combination. But, Ii's hard
to believe that anyone could be as
dumb as he seems to be.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still
Codebreaker
2008-10-04 16:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
Post by Cary Kittrell
I believe you misspelled "coma".
Considering that he's halfway in one, already, it's
a bit difficult for him to check his grammar and
spelling and remember to breathe in and out at
the same time. Poor Codebreaker is in bad shape.
What difference does this make?
I can still squeeze you. You ain't that difficult to take
in bed
Post by Michelle Malkin
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still
Budikka666
2008-10-05 12:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
Is it a penicillin-resistant strain? If so,
you might want to get that looked at right away.
He probably doesn't believe in medicine.
Post by Codebreaker
Call me up whenever you need it.
I know best how to make you groan all night long.
Oh, you don't have to even be in the same
state to have that effect.
His messages are enough to make everyone groan
at how childish they are.
Post by Codebreaker
Nobody else can do it even with COMMA.
English not first language for Codebreaker, is?
I believe you misspelled "coma".
Considering that he's halfway in one, already, it's
a bit difficult for him to check his grammar and
spelling and remember to breathe in and out at
the same time. Poor Codebreaker is in bad shape.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still
That doesn't sound like Codebreaker, actually. It sounds more like
Jabriol impersonating Codebreaker.

Budikka
Codebreaker
2008-10-05 21:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
Is it a penicillin-resistant strain?  If so,
you might want to get that looked at right away.
He probably doesn't believe in medicine.
Post by Codebreaker
Call me up whenever you need it.
I know best how to make you groan all night long.
Oh, you don't have to even be in the same
state to have that effect.
His messages are enough to make everyone groan
at how childish they are.
Post by Codebreaker
Nobody else can do it even with COMMA.
English not first language for Codebreaker, is?
I believe you misspelled "coma".
Considering that he's halfway in one, already, it's
a bit difficult for him to check his grammar and
spelling and remember to breathe in and out at
the same time. Poor Codebreaker is in bad shape.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)  aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still
That doesn't sound like Codebreaker, actually.  It sounds more like
Jabriol impersonating Codebreaker.
Yeah, I agree. Codebreaker is a very articulate man.
He is sophisticate, intelligent and smart,
though some wayward women may deny it.
Budikka- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Codebreaker
2008-10-05 18:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
Post by Cary Kittrell
I believe you misspelled "coma".
Considering that he's halfway in one, already, it's
a bit difficult for him to check his grammar and
spelling and remember to breathe in and out at
the same time. Poor Codebreaker is in bad shape.
What difference does this make?
I can still squeeze you at will. You ain't that difficult
to take to bed
Post by Michelle Malkin
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)  aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"It isn't faith that makes good science,
Mr. Klaatu. It is curiosity." Professor
Barnhardt - The Day The Earth Stood Still- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Codebreaker
2008-10-05 18:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
In article
Post by Codebreaker
messagenews:MPG.2=
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
He did leave out a comma.
I save the comma om my dick for you babe.
'om' Would you mind writing in English?
Om for omelette right?
No, I guess you meant Homeless a word that you
just mispelled.
But anyaway, since you believe with that faggot, I mean
Mark Bill-boh, that I am a homeless which I wish I was,
how do you explain the fact that this homeless has visited
most of the nice places in the world?
I have visited Rome and the Colesseum,
Saint Peter Square - Italy
Dublin in Ireland
London-England
Poitiers- France
Paris-France
Barcelona-Spain
Canary Island-Spain
Banjul, Gambia-Africa
Mopti, Mali-Africa
And this "homeless" is about to sail
to Bethleem in Palestine.
Now explain how this homeless is able to afford those trips
overseas which count as a luxury for some of you?
We just don't have the reputation of bragging.
We were taught that bragging was a CARDINAL sin.
Now what is your accomplishments? Go head and
BRAG as atheists do best.
Post by Michelle Malkin
Is it a penicillin-resistant strain?  If so,
you might want to get that looked at right away.
He probably doesn't believe in medicine.
Way before EVIL-LUTION there was Medecine
The oath of Hypocrat is not made to Darwin, is it?
Codebreaker
2008-10-03 17:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
Post by Brian E. Clark
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
alohacyberian
2008-10-03 17:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
Post by Brian E. Clark
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
big man
p***@hotmail.com
2008-10-03 17:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
If this is what theism does to people, I want no part of it.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-03 17:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
"Free"? Temporarily. "Able"? Ah, now that's an
entirely different matter, isn't it?


-- cary
Douglas Berry
2008-10-04 00:49:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Codebreaker
<***@bigsecret.com> carved the following into the hard stone
of alt.atheism
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
Not a chance.

Tell you what. If you have the balls, come to San Jose. Ca. I have
access to a dojo. I will break every bone in your right arm, and you
won't even bruise me. I will make you deny God, beg for mercy, and
offer me your soul.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Stan-O
2008-10-04 02:28:44 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT), Codebreaker
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
"A man will say anything when he is wearing a mask" - Oscar Wilde
Mark K. Bilbo
2008-10-04 13:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article <3ff0a072-291d-46c6-a059-71d61d225383
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Codebreaker said...
Post by Codebreaker
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Considering that you arranged English morphemes
according to English syntax, your declaration of
freedom rings a bit hollow.
I am still free. Free to kick your ASS in fron of
your slut girl friend and make you cry like a baby
Oh get back under your bridge before you lose your cardboard house...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith
Cary Kittrell
2008-10-01 21:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Codebreaker
Post by chibiabos
I did not write this, although I wish I had. It describes succinctly
what happens to me when somebody writes something they think is smart
and witty but is full of so many grammatical errors as to be virtually
unintelligible.
It also describes my attitude towards spelling flames; something
generally frowned upon in Usenet. But I say, absent English not being
your first language, a learning disability, having no spell-checker, or
other handicap, if you can't spell a word correctly or punctuate it
correctly you have every right to be called on it. Why should I slog
through your bad grammar to search for what you suppose is a gem of
wisdom?
As the post below points out, this is _not_ elitism. It's simply a fact
that if you want to be understood and your opinions to be taken
seriously it is your duty to use the tools that the rest of us have
agreed are essential for such things.
I have undoubtedly been guilty of changing the focus of a thread in
this manner. The problem is that for those who know how to read and
write, and I make no apology for being one of them, bad writing is very
relevant. Bad writing jars the senses and nobbles comprehension. This
is not because we are priggish pedants. It is because of the way the
human brain functions; it bogs down when faced with things that aren't
the way a lifetime of experience tells us they should be.
I don't expect people who would write "I had a problem that made my HD
loose it's data, and I was going to restore it off of a backup but
their was more on the backup then the drive could hold. I tried to call
the company but there line was busy. There suppose to have enough lines
to help everyone. Just a warning. This could happen to you're HD..." to
get this, but I'll try to draw an analogy.
Take the ramp onto the Interstate. This is a stretch of Interstate
highway that you rarely drive; the Interstates that you frequently
drive are pretty well ordered, with only the occasional mistake. On
this particular stretch, however, traffic is moving in both directions
in both the northbound and the southbound lanes; some people are
driving backward. You're in the proper lane and trying to move in the
proper direction, but threading your way through this chaotic mess is
going to slow you down. It's not because you're a snob, but because the
information that your brain is receiving conflicts strongly with a
lifetime of knowing the way traffic is supposed to move on the
Interstate, and that befuddles your brain.
(I, on the other hand, lived and drove in Bangkok for nine years, so I
might fail to notice that anything was wrong if I were confronted with
the traffic mess described above.)
My brain, with a lifetime of training in the difference between
its/it's, loose/lose, off of/from, suppose/supposed, that/which,
then/than, there/their, your/you're, hey/hay, the _absolute_
requirement that compound adjectives be hyphenated, and the _absolute_
requirement that there be a comma before the last item in a series*,
will labor when presented with poorly written English; my reading will
be slowed. Like your Interstate experience, my brain is confronted with
conflicting information; the vast majority of the writing that I
encounter has been written by literate people, and it's mostly pretty
well written. When I'm confronted by bad writing my brain is taken
aback. If the piece I'm reading is sufficiently important I will
struggle through it, though research shows that my normal high level of
comprehension will be reduced as my brain keeps tripping over the bad
writing when it would be absorbing information in a properly written
text. If the text is not very important to me--the average USENET post,
e.g.--I probably won't continue reading after I have seen that it is
poorly written. If I do read it I'll try not to comment on the bad
writing, but I'm human, and I sometimes do things I shouldn't do. It is
also natural for me to wonder if the writer is ignorant in general.
I want to emphasize that this is the way the brain works. It has
nothing to do with elitism (an "elitist" being the guy who graduated at
#893 of 899 in McCain's USNA class).
In an era in which the President of the Unites States is functionally
illiterate, in which he campaigned on the premise that he is a just a
poor dumb good ol' boy from a lowly ranch in Texas (as opposed to, say,
a rich dumb crackhead from an elite New England family, which is what
he is); on the premise that education and educated people are bad for
America because educated people don't understand anything(!!); and an
era in which his Administration wages a relentless battle against
education and his party has teams of people (the neocon lie machine)
whose sole job is to smear educated people with lies, it isn't
surprising that low literacy levels pervade our society and the dumbing
of America is proceeding apace. The possibility that #894, who may be
even dumber than the incumbent, could be the next President is
chilling. His campaign, too, is attacking education and educated people
as elitist/traitors/friends of Bin Laden (insert your favorite neocon
lie here). Regardless of who wins, compare the results among school
dropouts with the results among high school and college graduates. If
we could eliminate education entirely #894 and his ilk would always
win. Taking this political? You may call it that, but I call it telling
it like it is. People who graduated somewhere above the .99 percentile
will get that. As for the others, it's still true: if you don't get it,
you don't get it.
Here's a bit of good news for those who don't get it. Those of us who
get it when it comes to speaking, reading, and writing are an aging and
shrinking segment of the population. Your degradation of the language
has a good chance of succeeding. You will be degrading your society at
the same time, but you won't notice it because not noticing such things
is part and parcel of not getting it. There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
I am a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
Do you understand that MOTHERFUCKER?
Um...no, no, I am afraid I could not. Could you repeat
that in English?



-- cary
Tartarus
2008-10-01 21:42:06 UTC
Permalink
There will always be _some_
annoyingly educated people around who think that's a real shame, but
you can always make fun of the way they talk and dismiss them as
New-England elitists. Smirk when you say that.
I am  a fervent propponent of freedom of GRAMMAR
which stands for plurality of grammar rules, just as some
have advocated plurality of religion, under a CODE WORD
of freedom of religion or worship.
I am free from MAN MADE GRAMMATICAL RULES.
That sounds like an excuse for being unable to be creative or
convincing within the ordinary strictures of the English language,
which you obviously use with at least a little facility. Why not
attempt to improve yourself instead of making excuses for poor
performance?

Tartarus
d***@yahoo.ca
2008-10-01 23:00:59 UTC
Permalink
all i have to say is EW, do you need to speak like this?

and why is peoples security number all over the place?

Dawn
Tartarus
2008-10-01 23:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.ca
all i have to say is EW, do you need to speak like this?
and why is peoples security number all over the place?
Dawn
Who are you responding to and what are you trying to say?

T
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