Discussion:
Refusing service
(too old to reply)
Kevrob
2017-01-21 16:12:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of lightening to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
It's an Act Of God.
That's the term of art. Those are natural occurrences usually.
Human action may make them more likely.
Unless you survive the experience but kills everybody else, in which
case it's a Miracle.
There's no deity involved there, either. I always think it
is highly insulting to talented, well-trained rescue workers
and medical staff when they risk their lives and work their
heads off to save someone against all odds, only to have cretins
thank an imaginary being before praising them.

Kevin R
sugar glider
2017-01-21 16:42:42 UTC
Permalink
the government cannot take your life without a very good reason.
I bet that's the only reason you can sleep at night....
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:48:48 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of
lightening to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
No such law. However, you said "how I can be legally killed is
rigidly defined", so you have to give us the law that rigidly defines
how it is that you may be legally killed by natural phenomena. Come
on, let's have it.
I can only wonder if the rights he claims exist only within and because
of the law are as 'rigidly defined' as he asserts this is.
I even get the sense that Attila may even be suggesting that rights
don't even exist within the law.
I think he feels they exist in the "penumbras and emanations" of the
law. If, as he wrongly asserts, the law "rigidly defines" how you may
lawfully be killed, then anything not in the definition is presumptively
illegal and thus creates your right. That's idiotic.

Governments are instituted among men as just one means - but not the
only - to secure rights we already have by virtue of being endowed with
them at birth.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:50:42 UTC
Permalink
I think he feels they exist in the "penumbras and emanations" of the law.
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 17:49:55 UTC
Permalink
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Straw man.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 17:50:50 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals
No. Slavery pertains to ownership, not what the person is obliged to
do. The convicts are never the property of the state or anyone else.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:51:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:12:28 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:42:42 -0500, "Scout"
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined
and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored
that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate human intellect.
That's what the FF implied.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and
the
pursuit of Happiness.
In the DofI, which is a political document.
Irrelevant. It is stating what the founders all knew: rights
are
antecedent to government and law.
So-called rights are meaningless unless there is an enforcement
mechanism in place.
No.
Why not? If they aren't enforced they can be ignored by anyone at
any
time.
Doesn't mean they will be.
Irrelevant. They can be.
Irrelevant. They generally won't be.
That is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.
It isn't. You are insisting that state-manufactured and backed laws are
the only way rights can be enforced. Furthermore, you insist that
state-manufactured law defines rights. Both are false.
Wrong on all counts. I have said nothing about the state
manufacturing anything.
Who is the producer of our laws?
Point. Set. Match.
The government, but it is the people, not the organization.
So I can just randomly walk into Congress and vote to pass a piece of
legislation. After all, it's the people, and I'm certainly one of the
people.
Your elected representative has that responsibility.
Sorry, but the government is defined AS THE ORGANIZATION.
A government is an organization, true.
You concede you were wrong about the state not manufacturing laws.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
You concede you were wrong
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
You concede you were wrong
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:52:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:16:49 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:33:02 -0500, "Scout"
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing. It cannot be used for anything as it has no
legal standing. It certainly cannot be used as the basis for
enforcing anything.
And yet it was used as a basis for enforcing their rights.
No, it was not.
Sure it was....even you admit that. (see below)
Since it was the opening act of the Revolutionary war, which resulted in
enforcement of their rights by force of arms against a government and
legal
system that refused to do so.
It resulted in the formation of a new country.
Which was the basis for enforcing their rights.
If the old government wouldn't enforce their rights, then they would
establish by force of arms a new one that would do so which was set forth in
the Declaration of Independence.
That country was defined in the Constitution
No. The country predates the Constitution.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:01:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:13:55 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:47:55 -0500, "Scout"
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement is a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker
how
to observe his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage, which is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally
burdens
his religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government
to
do that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker
how
to observe his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories
straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right
to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else
bake a cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right.
There
are just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the
Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a
few
of them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The
First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is
a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law.
False.
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate
human
intellect.
I did not say created. I said defined and enforced.
No, not defined. As for enforcement, state-created law is not
the only
way to do that.
A law must define what is to be enforced.
The right is not defined by what's in the law. The definition of
the
right is antecedent to all law.
To be of any use it must be enforced, and in our society the only
enforcement mechanism is the legal system.
False.
What else is there?
Your inability to comprehend alternatives is not the problem of
anyone
but you.
You seem to have a problem in finding any other mechanism.
Found, and presented.
Not anywhere I have seen.
Odd, in most of the US one such mechanism is celebrated every 4th of July.
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing.
Yep, it announced the Colonies desire to obtain their independence by any
means necessary, and established that the reason for doing so was because of
violations of their rights as people.
It gave the reasons for breaking with England. It did not establish a
new country or a new government.
Not what the Supreme Court says.

The first official action of this nation *declared the foundation of*
government in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident,
[165 U.S. 150, 160] that all men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among
these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.' While such
declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or
be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and
duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic
law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body
and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit,
and it is always safe to read the letter of the constitution in the
spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more
imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those
constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights
which is the foundation of free government.

Gulf, C. & S. F. R. Co. v. Ellis - Jan 1897, and repeated /verbatim/
in Cotting v Godard, Nov 1901

The Declaration of Independence did, in fact, establish a new country
and government.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:04:00 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation
LOL!
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:05:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:55:30 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:08:17 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 18:05:49 -0800, Siri Cruise
in alt.atheism with message-id
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not going
to
do you any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going to
help you after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
A 'right' only comes into play when a second party tries to
dictate
actions involving that 'right'. A person cannot violate their own
rights.
If I am living alone on a desert island does it matter what rights
I
have, if any?
Rights exist in human society.
And they are meaningless unless they are defined and enforced under
the law in our society.
False.
Why? How about an example of such a 'right' that exists but is not
defined by the law.
No right is defined by "law."
All rights are defined by law. Otherwise they are unenforceable.
Please cite the legal statute that defines "The right to life".
I have asked exactly that same question and I have yet to get an
answer from anyone.
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
It's intangible. You can't see it. However, we have it.
Indeed, can you point to ANY statute that specifically defines a right?
Sure. The right to vote, to keep and bear arms, the right to a speed
trial - the list is long.
"Right to vote" is a figure of speech. There is no such right. Voting
is a privilege of citizenship.

The others are not defined or created in law.
Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
2017-01-21 18:04:18 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
The stupid is strong in thsi one, young Skywalker.

Prisoners are not owned by the state, you dullard.
--
"...And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a
century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."--
Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 18:07:00 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:07:41 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters will do what they
can with undue risk to themselves and with resources available. They don't want
to listen to you scream as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
Exactly. Plus I cannot be forced to provide blood or body parts to
anyone for any reason.
Not at issue, and nothing to do with the other person's right to life.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:09:00 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:50:07 +0100 (CET), "Bradley K. Swerman"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:59:06 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:15:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:40:13 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 09:41:52 -0500, NoBody
alt.atheism with message-id
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:02:26 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:14:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement
is
a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker how to
observe
his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage,
which
is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally burdens
his
religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government to do
that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker how
to
observe
his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate
the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else bake
a
cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right. There
are
just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the Bill
of
Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a few
of
them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein
ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law. Otherwise a 'right' can be ignored with
impunity.
So unless you can define and enforce your right to life....then
I
can
kill
you with impunity because according to you your rights depend
only
on
what
the law defines and enforces?
Are you aware there are a number of laws defining when and where
I
can
kill you with impunity? Plus exactly where can I find this
elusive
'right to life'. I would like to see the details as to exactly
what
it covers.
True, and if I remove the laws that allow you to defend yourself
and
which
enforce your right to life....then I can murder you with impunity
and
neither you nor anyone else would complain because I would have
never
violated your rights.
But you will have violated the murder laws unless you acted in
compliance with them in every detail..
Not if those laws don't apply to you because the law says they
don't.
I mean how do you think the Jews in the Holocaust were killed?
Mostly by violation of existing laws.
False.
Even if true, by Attila's own statements without enforcement their
rights
don't exist.....so clearly according to Attila their killer was legal
since
there wasn't any enforcement to prevent it.
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal It would be outside the legal system and have no enforcement
mechanism.
The remedy would be to enact the necessary laws, but the act cannot be
enforced before such laws are established. And any extra-legal
enforcement must be done carefully because such acts themselves may be
illegal under existing law.
For example, it is illegal for an individual to physically restrain a
person from doing anything that is not illegal. Under our system
there is a distinct difference between being legal and not being
illegal. That is basically what the Ninth Amendment establishes.
Meaning if I lock some illegal aliens in my tool shed until ICE
comes to get them it's legal.
No, because you are making the determination that they are illegal, a
status only the government can determine. Therefore you are guilty of
false imprisonment.
BS - see "citizen's arrest"
Which can only be done under rigidly defined circumstances
Define them right here.

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