Discussion:
Refusing service
(too old to reply)
Kevrob
2017-01-21 16:12:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of lightening to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
It's an Act Of God.
That's the term of art. Those are natural occurrences usually.
Human action may make them more likely.
Unless you survive the experience but kills everybody else, in which
case it's a Miracle.
There's no deity involved there, either. I always think it
is highly insulting to talented, well-trained rescue workers
and medical staff when they risk their lives and work their
heads off to save someone against all odds, only to have cretins
thank an imaginary being before praising them.

Kevin R
sugar glider
2017-01-21 16:42:42 UTC
Permalink
the government cannot take your life without a very good reason.
I bet that's the only reason you can sleep at night....
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:48:48 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of
lightening to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
No such law. However, you said "how I can be legally killed is
rigidly defined", so you have to give us the law that rigidly defines
how it is that you may be legally killed by natural phenomena. Come
on, let's have it.
I can only wonder if the rights he claims exist only within and because
of the law are as 'rigidly defined' as he asserts this is.
I even get the sense that Attila may even be suggesting that rights
don't even exist within the law.
I think he feels they exist in the "penumbras and emanations" of the
law. If, as he wrongly asserts, the law "rigidly defines" how you may
lawfully be killed, then anything not in the definition is presumptively
illegal and thus creates your right. That's idiotic.

Governments are instituted among men as just one means - but not the
only - to secure rights we already have by virtue of being endowed with
them at birth.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:50:42 UTC
Permalink
I think he feels they exist in the "penumbras and emanations" of the law.
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Scout
2017-01-21 20:54:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of
lightening to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
No such law. However, you said "how I can be legally killed is
rigidly defined", so you have to give us the law that rigidly defines
how it is that you may be legally killed by natural phenomena. Come
on, let's have it.
I can only wonder if the rights he claims exist only within and because
of the law are as 'rigidly defined' as he asserts this is.
I even get the sense that Attila may even be suggesting that rights
don't even exist within the law.
I think he feels they exist in the "penumbras and emanations" of the law.
If, as he wrongly asserts, the law "rigidly defines" how you may lawfully
be killed, then anything not in the definition is presumptively illegal
and thus creates your right. That's idiotic.
Well, Attila's philosophy is showing itself to be very idiotic.

Which after all was the point of debating Attila on it.
Governments are instituted among men as just one means - but not the
only - to secure rights we already have by virtue of being endowed with
them at birth.
Further the law does not and and simply can not define all the rights we
have.

An acknowledgement of that fact is the purpose of the 9th Amendment.

Yet Attila would assert that all our rights are all addressed within the
law. When challenged Attila is unable to produce the statutes that define
some of the most basic rights, such as the right to life.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 17:49:55 UTC
Permalink
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Straw man.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 17:50:50 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals
No. Slavery pertains to ownership, not what the person is obliged to
do. The convicts are never the property of the state or anyone else.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:24:24 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals
No. Slavery pertains to ownership, not what the person is obliged to do.
The convicts are never the property of the state or anyone else.
13th Amendment states otherwise.

If the law and the courts decide you become property as a punishment for
your crime, then you are property. It's all perfectly legal.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 20:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Clarence Callahan
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals
No. Slavery pertains to ownership, not what the person is obliged to
do. The convicts are never the property of the state or anyone else.
13th Amendment states otherwise.
It doesn't.
Post by Scout
If the law and the courts decide you become property as a punishment for
your crime
They can't - ever.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:51:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:12:28 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:42:42 -0500, "Scout"
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined
and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored
that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate human intellect.
That's what the FF implied.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and
the
pursuit of Happiness.
In the DofI, which is a political document.
Irrelevant. It is stating what the founders all knew: rights
are
antecedent to government and law.
So-called rights are meaningless unless there is an enforcement
mechanism in place.
No.
Why not? If they aren't enforced they can be ignored by anyone at
any
time.
Doesn't mean they will be.
Irrelevant. They can be.
Irrelevant. They generally won't be.
That is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.
It isn't. You are insisting that state-manufactured and backed laws are
the only way rights can be enforced. Furthermore, you insist that
state-manufactured law defines rights. Both are false.
Wrong on all counts. I have said nothing about the state
manufacturing anything.
Who is the producer of our laws?
Point. Set. Match.
The government, but it is the people, not the organization.
So I can just randomly walk into Congress and vote to pass a piece of
legislation. After all, it's the people, and I'm certainly one of the
people.
Your elected representative has that responsibility.
Sorry, but the government is defined AS THE ORGANIZATION.
A government is an organization, true.
You concede you were wrong about the state not manufacturing laws.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
You concede you were wrong
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
You concede you were wrong
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 17:52:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:16:49 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:33:02 -0500, "Scout"
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing. It cannot be used for anything as it has no
legal standing. It certainly cannot be used as the basis for
enforcing anything.
And yet it was used as a basis for enforcing their rights.
No, it was not.
Sure it was....even you admit that. (see below)
Since it was the opening act of the Revolutionary war, which resulted in
enforcement of their rights by force of arms against a government and
legal
system that refused to do so.
It resulted in the formation of a new country.
Which was the basis for enforcing their rights.
If the old government wouldn't enforce their rights, then they would
establish by force of arms a new one that would do so which was set forth in
the Declaration of Independence.
That country was defined in the Constitution
No. The country predates the Constitution.
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
sugar glider
2017-01-21 17:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
No. The country
Time to remind folks who YOU are, Jonathan Ball!


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005 http://bit.ly/2cYknsh
[end]

Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan
Ball,
you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that
you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to
5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball http://bit.ly/1LFy9t8
______________________________________________________________________________
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:01:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:13:55 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:47:55 -0500, "Scout"
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement is a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker
how
to observe his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage, which is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally
burdens
his religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government
to
do that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker
how
to observe his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories
straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right
to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else
bake a cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right.
There
are just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the
Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a
few
of them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The
First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is
a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law.
False.
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate
human
intellect.
I did not say created. I said defined and enforced.
No, not defined. As for enforcement, state-created law is not
the only
way to do that.
A law must define what is to be enforced.
The right is not defined by what's in the law. The definition of
the
right is antecedent to all law.
To be of any use it must be enforced, and in our society the only
enforcement mechanism is the legal system.
False.
What else is there?
Your inability to comprehend alternatives is not the problem of
anyone
but you.
You seem to have a problem in finding any other mechanism.
Found, and presented.
Not anywhere I have seen.
Odd, in most of the US one such mechanism is celebrated every 4th of July.
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing.
Yep, it announced the Colonies desire to obtain their independence by any
means necessary, and established that the reason for doing so was because of
violations of their rights as people.
It gave the reasons for breaking with England. It did not establish a
new country or a new government.
Not what the Supreme Court says.

The first official action of this nation *declared the foundation of*
government in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident,
[165 U.S. 150, 160] that all men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among
these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.' While such
declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or
be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and
duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic
law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body
and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit,
and it is always safe to read the letter of the constitution in the
spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more
imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those
constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights
which is the foundation of free government.

Gulf, C. & S. F. R. Co. v. Ellis - Jan 1897, and repeated /verbatim/
in Cotting v Godard, Nov 1901

The Declaration of Independence did, in fact, establish a new country
and government.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:04:00 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation
LOL!
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:05:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:55:30 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:08:17 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 18:05:49 -0800, Siri Cruise
in alt.atheism with message-id
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not going
to
do you any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going to
help you after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
A 'right' only comes into play when a second party tries to
dictate
actions involving that 'right'. A person cannot violate their own
rights.
If I am living alone on a desert island does it matter what rights
I
have, if any?
Rights exist in human society.
And they are meaningless unless they are defined and enforced under
the law in our society.
False.
Why? How about an example of such a 'right' that exists but is not
defined by the law.
No right is defined by "law."
All rights are defined by law. Otherwise they are unenforceable.
Please cite the legal statute that defines "The right to life".
I have asked exactly that same question and I have yet to get an
answer from anyone.
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
It's intangible. You can't see it. However, we have it.
Indeed, can you point to ANY statute that specifically defines a right?
Sure. The right to vote, to keep and bear arms, the right to a speed
trial - the list is long.
"Right to vote" is a figure of speech. There is no such right. Voting
is a privilege of citizenship.

The others are not defined or created in law.
Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
2017-01-21 18:04:18 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
The stupid is strong in thsi one, young Skywalker.

Prisoners are not owned by the state, you dullard.
--
"...And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a
century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."--
Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787
Scout
2017-01-21 20:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
The stupid is strong in thsi one, young Skywalker.
Prisoners are not owned by the state, you dullard.
They have been, and they could be again. Nothing illegal about it as long as
it's done within compliance of the 13th Amendment.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 20:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
The stupid is strong in thsi one, young Skywalker.
Prisoners are not owned by the state, you dullard.
They have been,
Not since the 13th amendment.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:01:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:25:56 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
The stupid is strong in thsi one, young Skywalker.
Prisoners are not owned by the state, you dullard.
They have been, and they could be again. Nothing illegal about it as long as
it's done within compliance of the 13th Amendment.
Can I buy one?

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 18:07:00 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
Ministry of Vengeance and Vendettas
2017-01-21 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of
their punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all
circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
You have to give Siri some lattitude. She doesn't have an entire brain. And
what she does have she doesn't use.
--
"...And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a
century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."--
Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787
Siri Cruise
2017-01-21 18:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
Slavery is being forced to work without pay. States can rent out their convicts
for forced labour. Once again the 13th says 'Neither slavery nor involuntary
servitude'. It is the plain reading of the amendment.

And states have done that. Some states now forbid this.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Free the Amos Yee one.
Yeah, too bad about your so-called life. Ha-ha.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 19:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Siri Cruise
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
Slavery is being forced to work without pay.
No. Slavery is a person being owned as chattel. That's what it is. It
doesn't matter if the owner makes the slave work or not. It's only the
ownership.
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Siri Cruise
Slavery is being forced to work without pay.
Nah, that's called marriage!

Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh!
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Siri Cruise
Slavery is being forced to work without pay.
Nah, that's called marriage!

Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh!
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Siri Cruise
Slavery is being forced to work without pay.
Nah, that's called marriage!

Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh!
Attila
2017-01-21 20:58:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:49:24 -0800, Siri Cruise <***@yahoo.com>
in alt.atheism with message-id
Post by Siri Cruise
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
Slavery is being forced to work without pay. States can rent out their convicts
for forced labour. Once again the 13th says 'Neither slavery nor involuntary
servitude'. It is the plain reading of the amendment.
And states have done that. Some states now forbid this.
Slavery is a lot more than being forced to work without pay. Did you
ever hear of community service?

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and the
convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly, misreading
the provision.
They are, if the court and the law decide they are, as punishment for their
crimes.
Clarence Callahan
2017-01-21 20:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Clarence Callahan
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery. Inmates are not property, they cannot be
bought and sold, there are legal limits on their treatment, and their
Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
It is involuntary servitude *only* that is permitted by law as a
punishment for a crime; not slavery. Slavery is about property, and
the convicts are not property. You are willfully, and stupidly,
misreading the provision.
They are, if the court and the law decide they are, as punishment for
their crimes.
No. There is no provision of law, state or federal, that specifies
slavery as punishment for any crime. The court doesn't get to decide
that. The court can only impose sentences provided by law. If the
sentence is imprisonment, then the convict may be forced to work -
involuntary servitude. Slavery is out. At no time does the convict
become property.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:07:41 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters will do what they
can with undue risk to themselves and with resources available. They don't want
to listen to you scream as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
Exactly. Plus I cannot be forced to provide blood or body parts to
anyone for any reason.
Not at issue, and nothing to do with the other person's right to life.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:09:00 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:50:07 +0100 (CET), "Bradley K. Swerman"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:59:06 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:15:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:40:13 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 09:41:52 -0500, NoBody
alt.atheism with message-id
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:02:26 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:14:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement
is
a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker how to
observe
his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage,
which
is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally burdens
his
religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government to do
that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker how
to
observe
his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate
the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else bake
a
cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right. There
are
just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the Bill
of
Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a few
of
them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein
ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law. Otherwise a 'right' can be ignored with
impunity.
So unless you can define and enforce your right to life....then
I
can
kill
you with impunity because according to you your rights depend
only
on
what
the law defines and enforces?
Are you aware there are a number of laws defining when and where
I
can
kill you with impunity? Plus exactly where can I find this
elusive
'right to life'. I would like to see the details as to exactly
what
it covers.
True, and if I remove the laws that allow you to defend yourself
and
which
enforce your right to life....then I can murder you with impunity
and
neither you nor anyone else would complain because I would have
never
violated your rights.
But you will have violated the murder laws unless you acted in
compliance with them in every detail..
Not if those laws don't apply to you because the law says they
don't.
I mean how do you think the Jews in the Holocaust were killed?
Mostly by violation of existing laws.
False.
Even if true, by Attila's own statements without enforcement their
rights
don't exist.....so clearly according to Attila their killer was legal
since
there wasn't any enforcement to prevent it.
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal It would be outside the legal system and have no enforcement
mechanism.
The remedy would be to enact the necessary laws, but the act cannot be
enforced before such laws are established. And any extra-legal
enforcement must be done carefully because such acts themselves may be
illegal under existing law.
For example, it is illegal for an individual to physically restrain a
person from doing anything that is not illegal. Under our system
there is a distinct difference between being legal and not being
illegal. That is basically what the Ninth Amendment establishes.
Meaning if I lock some illegal aliens in my tool shed until ICE
comes to get them it's legal.
No, because you are making the determination that they are illegal, a
status only the government can determine. Therefore you are guilty of
false imprisonment.
BS - see "citizen's arrest"
Which can only be done under rigidly defined circumstances
Define them right here.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:09:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:06:40 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:59:06 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:15:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:40:13 -0500, "Scout"
in
alt.atheism with message-id
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:02:26 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:14:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement
is
a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker how to
observe
his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage,
which
is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally burdens his
religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government to do
that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker how to
observe
his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate
the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else bake a
cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right. There are
just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the Bill of
Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a few of
them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all therein
ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law. Otherwise a 'right' can be ignored with impunity.
So unless you can define and enforce your right to life....then I
can
kill
you with impunity because according to you your rights depend only
on
what
the law defines and enforces?
Are you aware there are a number of laws defining when and where I
can
kill you with impunity? Plus exactly where can I find this elusive
'right to life'. I would like to see the details as to exactly
what
it covers.
True, and if I remove the laws that allow you to defend yourself and
which
enforce your right to life....then I can murder you with impunity
and
neither you nor anyone else would complain because I would have
never
violated your rights.
But you will have violated the murder laws unless you acted in
compliance with them in every detail..
Not if those laws don't apply to you because the law says they don't.
I mean how do you think the Jews in the Holocaust were killed?
Mostly by violation of existing laws.
False.
Even if true, by Attila's own statements without enforcement their rights
don't exist.....so clearly according to Attila their killer was legal
since
there wasn't any enforcement to prevent it.
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it mean.
No, the act can be outside of the law. It can be allowed while no
being defined under the legal system
It simply is not prohibited.
Wrong. In our system, anything not defined to be illegal is presumed to
be legal.
<snip> your attempt to dance around and refuse to address that by your own
statements and standards the German Jews had no rights.
If you are going to criticize or interpret what I said please leave my
comments intact.
You don't get to dictate to anyone. You have neither the right nor the
power.
Josh Rosenbluth
2017-01-21 18:19:45 UTC
Permalink
{snip}
Post by Rudy Canoza
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it mean.
No, the act can be outside of the law. It can be allowed while no
being defined under the legal system
It simply is not prohibited.
Wrong. In our system, anything not defined to be illegal is presumed to
be legal.
This is the original meaning of "the exception that proves the rule".

For example, if only 30 feet along a 200-foot curb has signs saying "No
Parking" (the exception), the rule is parking is permitted everywhere
else along the curb.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:24:30 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
13A says, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME ... shall exist within the United States ..."
Scout is telling something you wouldn't have to ask if you
had bothered to actually read the amendment. 13A clearly
and expressly allows slavery to exist as a punishment for crimes.
No, it does *NOT*. Involuntary servitude is what the thirteenth
amendment permits. Slavery is not allowed - full stop. Slavery
pertains to humans as chattel, and the thirteenth amendment does not
allow that.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:36:19 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
13A says, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME ... shall exist within the United States ..."
Scout is telling something you wouldn't have to ask if you
had bothered to actually read the amendment. 13A clearly
and expressly allows slavery to exist as a punishment for crimes.
No, it does *NOT*. Involuntary servitude is what the thirteenth amendment
permits. Slavery is not allowed - full stop.
Wrong. Neither is allowed EXCEPT as punishment for a crime, then either can
be imposed.
Slavery pertains to humans as chattel, and the thirteenth amendment does
not allow that.
It certainly does. If you're willing to actually READ it, rather than make
it say what you think it should.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 20:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Rudy Canoza
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
13A says, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME ... shall exist within the United States ..."
Scout is telling something you wouldn't have to ask if you
had bothered to actually read the amendment. 13A clearly
and expressly allows slavery to exist as a punishment for crimes.
No, it does *NOT*. Involuntary servitude is what the thirteenth
amendment permits. Slavery is not allowed - full stop.
Wrong. Neither is allowed EXCEPT as punishment for a crime
Slavery isn't allowed at all; only involuntary servitude and only as
punishment for a crime.
Post by Scout
Post by Rudy Canoza
Slavery pertains to humans as chattel, and the thirteenth amendment
does not allow that.
It certainly does.
It doesn't. You clearly don't understand English. The thirteenth
amendment is a classic instance of a misplaced/missing comma. The
*intent* of the amendment is:

Neither slavery*,* nor involuntary servitude [] except as a
punishment for crime...

The comma following "servitude" is wrong; the implied comma following
"slavery" is omitted from the text but not the meaning.

At no time does the state own prisoner. Custody is not ownership. This
is settled.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:27:04 UTC
Permalink
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Depends. If some guy is four houses down the block running at you with
a raised baseball bat saying he's going to smash your head in, you can't
shoot him when he's 75 yards away. The threat has to be imminent.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:45:50 UTC
Permalink
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Depends. If some guy is four houses down the block running at you with a
raised baseball bat saying he's going to smash your head in, you can't
shoot him when he's 75 yards away. The threat has to be imminent.
Depends...if you're about to pass out from injuries or something
else....then it it certainly would become imminent because after you pass
out it would be too late to address the threat he presents.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 20:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Rudy Canoza
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Depends. If some guy is four houses down the block running at you
with a raised baseball bat saying he's going to smash your head in,
you can't shoot him when he's 75 yards away. The threat has to be
imminent.
Depends...if you're about to pass out from injuries or something
else....then it it certainly would become imminent because
No.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 18:28:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
No, it's simply his right, and the law acknowledges it; it doesn't
create it.
Ted
2017-01-21 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
No, it's simply his right, and the law acknowledges it; it doesn't create it.
Foreigners apparently believe that rights are legislated into existence.
Just curious, have you ever met one who* doesn't?

*KK uses "that"
--
"This troll is one of the dumbest, most opinionated, most blinkered and
also the most arrogant septic idiots one can come across."
Loading Image...
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 19:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
No, it's simply his right, and the law acknowledges it; it doesn't create it.
Foreigners apparently believe that rights are legislated into existence.
Just curious, have you ever met one who* doesn't?
Strangely, it's not a discussion I've ever had with non-Americans. I've
met and worked with enough over the years, I'm surprised it's never come
up. I'll have to ask some time.
Post by Ted
*KK uses "that"
I know he does. He's a fuckwit.
Ted
2017-01-21 21:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Ted
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
No, it's simply his right, and the law acknowledges it; it doesn't create it.
Foreigners apparently believe that rights are legislated into existence.
Just curious, have you ever met one who* doesn't?
Strangely, it's not a discussion I've ever had with non-Americans. I've
met and worked with enough over the years, I'm surprised it's never come
up. I'll have to ask some time.
IIRC, Alex from alt.atheism discussed it before.
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Ted
*KK uses "that"
I know he does. He's a fuckwit.
And he claims his IQ is 165.
--
"This troll is one of the dumbest, most opinionated, most blinkered and
also the most arrogant septic idiots one can come across."
http://kingofwallpapers.com/ted/ted-005.jpg
Klaus Schadenfreude
2017-01-21 19:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
Foreigners apparently believe that rights are legislated into existence.
Just the stupid ones.
Ted
2017-01-21 21:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Schadenfreude
Post by Ted
Foreigners apparently believe that rights are legislated into existence.
Just the stupid ones.
Have you ever met one who believes otherwise?
--
"This troll is one of the dumbest, most opinionated, most blinkered and
also the most arrogant septic idiots one can come across."
http://kingofwallpapers.com/ted/ted-005.jpg
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 19:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
{snip}
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
There is the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment which has been
interpreted such that the government cannot take your life without a
very good reason.
As a statist, you would of course focus solely on how the government may
kill people. In fact, little prickcheese sophist joshie, the "right to
live" precedes any government.
Kevrob
2017-01-21 19:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
{snip}
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
There is the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment which has been
interpreted such that the government cannot take your life without a
very good reason.
As a statist, you would of course focus solely on how the government may
kill people. In fact, little prickcheese sophist joshie, the "right to
live" precedes any government.
...,and the 14th extends due process in capital cases to the states,
but for Federal purposes the 5th amendment has always protected it.

The rights mentioned in our federal and state constitutions
are only recognized by those documents. They derive from our nature
as sapient individuals.

Now, those of you arguing about whether the Declaration of Independence
informs our laws or not. I'll not rehearse the thoughts of the likes of
Harry Jaffa and Leo Strauss over this. Suffice it to say that the idea
that the DoI informs many a constitutional argument is a popular one,
even if some object to it.

Also, those arguing about "slave convicts" take a look at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States

Kevin R
Scout
2017-01-21 20:17:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:47:57 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:51:08 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going
to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law they are illegal and the
person is subject to arrest. As he should be.
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
, then according to you they should simply
accept that as their lot in life?
There isn't much they can do about it. I know of no cases in history
where slave uprisings have been successful in establishing a stable
government or when slaves were directly able to change their own
status without outside help.
So it would be better to live as a slave?
That is not the issue under discussion.
Certainly it is. After all, it follows directly from your assertion that
rights aren't inherent but rather an artifact of the law.

Thus if slavery is legal, then slaves have no right to freedom. You as a
legal slave, would have no right to be anything other than a slave. That is
the ramifications of your philosophy AS STATED BY YOU.

Further as a slave you would advise other slave to accept their slavery as
their legal place in society and that attempting to take actions unto their
own hands to change that isn't even worth considering much less trying
because according to you no slave has ever managed to escape to freedom
and/or to convince others that it is a violation of their rights to be
enslaved.

That is what you have stated is your position and the question asked was
merely to directly confirm that which you've stated as your philosophy.
Clearly the consequences of your beliefs are certainly relevant to
determining whether you actually believe what you state and would live by
the results regardless of what they might be.

Apparently, you refuse to even consider living by your own philosophy.
Attila
2017-01-21 20:56:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:17:30 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:47:57 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:51:08 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going
to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law they are illegal and the
person is subject to arrest. As he should be.
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
, then according to you they should simply
accept that as their lot in life?
There isn't much they can do about it. I know of no cases in history
where slave uprisings have been successful in establishing a stable
government or when slaves were directly able to change their own
status without outside help.
So it would be better to live as a slave?
That is not the issue under discussion.
Certainly it is. After all, it follows directly from your assertion that
rights aren't inherent but rather an artifact of the law.
Thus if slavery is legal, then slaves have no right to freedom. You as a
legal slave, would have no right to be anything other than a slave. That is
the ramifications of your philosophy AS STATED BY YOU.
And if slavery was legal that would be correct.
Post by Scout
Further as a slave you would advise other slave to accept their slavery as
their legal place in society and that attempting to take actions unto their
own hands to change that isn't even worth considering much less trying
because according to you no slave has ever managed to escape to freedom
and/or to convince others that it is a violation of their rights to be
enslaved.
Such actions would be illegal. While I may or may not either take
such actions myself or advise others to do so if I did take such
actions I would be subject to the penalties prescribed.
Post by Scout
That is what you have stated is your position and the question asked was
merely to directly confirm that which you've stated as your philosophy.
Clearly the consequences of your beliefs are certainly relevant to
determining whether you actually believe what you state and would live by
the results regardless of what they might be.
Apparently, you refuse to even consider living by your own philosophy.
Slavery seems to be a particularly hot button for you.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:20:43 UTC
Permalink
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Federal law, and certainly the US Constitution supersedes state law.

But in any case, thank you, for your admission that it is entirely possible
under our laws and that you were wrong when you said it wasn't.

Oh, and please provide a cite for some of those states you claim outlaw
slavery under all circumstances.
Rudy Canoza
2017-01-21 20:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Federal law, and certainly the US Constitution supersedes state law.
But in any case, thank you, for your admission that it is entirely
possible under our laws and that you were wrong when you said it wasn't.
Slavery is illegal - full stop. The thirteenth amendment allows
involuntary servitude for convicted criminals. It does not allow
slavery. Slavery is being property. That's *all* it is.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:21:50 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery.
No one said it was. Now do you have something relevant to aid, or simply
this display of your ignorance of the facts?
Attila
2017-01-21 21:00:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:21:50 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
in alt.atheism with message-id
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
It is legal in federal law to enslave convicted criminals as part of their
punishment. Some states have outlawed slavery under all circumstances.
Incarnation is not slavery.
No one said it was. Now do you have something relevant to aid, or simply
this display of your ignorance of the facts?
Why was the comment "Some states have outlawed slavery under all
circumstances." made?

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:26:40 UTC
Permalink
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Meth speaking again?
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:26:54 UTC
Permalink
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Meth speaking again?
Camarillo Brillo
2017-01-21 20:27:07 UTC
Permalink
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Meth speaking again?
Scout
2017-01-21 20:29:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:49:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:51:08 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going
to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law they are illegal and the
person is subject to arrest. As he should be.
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
Rather let us say it continued to allow slavery/involuntary servitude of a
specific type.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:07:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:29:09 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:49:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:51:08 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going
to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law they are illegal and the
person is subject to arrest. As he should be.
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
Rather let us say it continued to allow slavery/involuntary servitude of a
specific type.
Since they are not the same you are wrong yet again.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:34:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:30:47 -0700, Just Wondering
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
13A says, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME ... shall exist within the United States ..."
Scout is telling something you wouldn't have to ask if you
had bothered to actually read the amendment. 13A clearly
and expressly allows slavery to exist as a punishment for crimes.
I was being sarcastic.
More like idiotic
Only an idiot would think any Amendment
established slavery.
Then that would be you, since I never stated the 13th established slavery.

At most, it could be said to have allowed this particular form of slavery to
continue.
And no, it does not. It allows involuntary servitude, which is
entirely different.
No, it allows either as punishment for a crime.

The exception applies to both slavery and involuntary servitude.

See that little comma after 'servitude'?

It means something.

As noted what you are displaying isn't sarcasm, but your own ignorance.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:06:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:34:43 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:30:47 -0700, Just Wondering
So if a person is legally a slave
Not possible under our laws.
It most certainly is ENTIRELY possible under our laws.
Ref 13th Amendment.
You are saying that amendment established slavery?
13A says, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME ... shall exist within the United States ..."
Scout is telling something you wouldn't have to ask if you
had bothered to actually read the amendment. 13A clearly
and expressly allows slavery to exist as a punishment for crimes.
I was being sarcastic.
More like idiotic
I was not trying to intrude on your territory.
Post by Scout
Only an idiot would think any Amendment
established slavery.
Then that would be you, since I never stated the 13th established slavery.
Sigh. Nobody said you did.
Post by Scout
At most, it could be said to have allowed this particular form of slavery to
continue.
But it didn't.
Post by Scout
And no, it does not. It allows involuntary servitude, which is
entirely different.
No, it allows either as punishment for a crime.
The exception applies to both slavery and involuntary servitude.
See that little comma after 'servitude'?
It means something.
Yep. It means the state can force you to work but no individual or
non-governmental body can do the same.
Post by Scout
As noted what you are displaying isn't sarcasm, but your own ignorance.
I suspect you have an issue with my signature don't you?

Take a number.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:39:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:50:44 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:53:09 -0500, "Scout"
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:25:12 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't
going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I
know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to
defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law
Already stipulated that they aren't.
Not by me. Anyone committing vigilante action is subject to arrest.
And should be arrested.
So tell me, when the government is ignoring your rights and either
directly
or indirectly allowing them to be violated....exactly what action do you
suggest they take?
First just what right is being violated? Too many people like to talk
in generalities and can't seem to come to grips with the specific.
IOW, you seek to confuse, deflect, and otherwise refuse to address the
very
simply question put to you.
<snip> lame attempt to refuse to answer the simple question asked.
Speaking of simple questions, you keep yelling about what you would do
if I violated your rights but you seem to have a problem in actually
stating such a right.
I have lots of rights. I won't know which one you're violating until you do
so.

Maybe you want to prevent me from having consensual sex with my own wife.
Nothing in the law says you can't, however, I (and she) would certainly see
it as a violation of our rights, and both of us would probably take action
against you for such an attempt.

Meanwhile, I still note your refusal to answer the question asked.
Attila
2017-01-21 20:50:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:39:01 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:50:44 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:53:09 -0500, "Scout"
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:25:12 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:38:24 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:48:19 -0500, "Scout"
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going to
do you
any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't
going
to
help
you
after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
1) They might not do me any good, but on the other hand I
know
I
have
them
as do others.
Why does that matter?
Because it gives me the moral high ground to stand up to
defend
my
rights even if the law will not.
As well as the support of society.
How? In what way?
Not interfering when he acts in just defense of his rights.
If his actions are illegal he should be arrested and tried.
The actions of the person acting to defend his rights are neither
illegal nor wrong.
If they are in violation of existing law
Already stipulated that they aren't.
Not by me. Anyone committing vigilante action is subject to arrest.
And should be arrested.
So tell me, when the government is ignoring your rights and either
directly
or indirectly allowing them to be violated....exactly what action do you
suggest they take?
First just what right is being violated? Too many people like to talk
in generalities and can't seem to come to grips with the specific.
IOW, you seek to confuse, deflect, and otherwise refuse to address the
very
simply question put to you.
<snip> lame attempt to refuse to answer the simple question asked.
Speaking of simple questions, you keep yelling about what you would do
if I violated your rights but you seem to have a problem in actually
stating such a right.
I have lots of rights. I won't know which one you're violating until you do
so.
Maybe you want to prevent me from having consensual sex with my own wife.
Nothing in the law says you can't, however, I (and she) would certainly see
it as a violation of our rights, and both of us would probably take action
against you for such an attempt.
That might be subject to some other factors. For example, at high
noon in front of city hall?

Not everything is a 'right'. Sometimes it's just something nobody
cares about.
Post by Scout
Meanwhile, I still note your refusal to answer the question asked.
If you are talking about the government question the remedy is to have
the laws involved changed. It is not to take illegal action.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:39:35 UTC
Permalink
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
Not what I asked.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:42:25 UTC
Permalink
in alt.atheism with message-id
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters will do what
they
can with undue risk to themselves and with resources available. They don't
want
to listen to you scream as you die, but they may have more victims than
they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
Exactly.
Then you should be able to show us the legal statute that exactly defines
the right to life and it's specific extents.....

That is if your assertions about the law have any validity in fact.

----------> Insert federal statute number here

US statutes are of the form of 'xxUSCxxxx'

Failure to present such a statute can only be viewed as an admission that
this right isn't defined in the law, and thus according to your philosophy
it doesn't exist at all.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:10:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:42:25 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
in alt.atheism with message-id
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters will do what
they
can with undue risk to themselves and with resources available. They don't
want
to listen to you scream as you die, but they may have more victims than
they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
Exactly.
Then you should be able to show us the legal statute that exactly defines
the right to life and it's specific extents.....
That is what I have been trying to get, with no luck. An exact
definition doesn't seem to exist anywhere.
Post by Scout
That is if your assertions about the law have any validity in fact.
----------> Insert federal statute number here
US statutes are of the form of 'xxUSCxxxx'
Failure to present such a statute can only be viewed as an admission that
this right isn't defined in the law, and thus according to your philosophy
it doesn't exist at all.
Or I means I am tired of your nit-picking in an attempt to avoid the
actual subject.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:43:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
Even if you're a legal slave?

Oh, and it's his right regardless of what the law says.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:11:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:43:55 -0500, "Scout"
Post by Scout
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:34:49 -0700, Just Wondering
So according to you there is no right to life.
There is no unlimitted
or limited, either
right to life.
If you're trapped in burning car, the police and firefighters
will do what they can with undue risk to themselves and with
resources available. They don't want to listen to you scream
as you die, but they may have more victims than they can
treat so they concentrate on the ones most likely to survive.
More to the point for t.p.guns, if someone accosts me with
deadly force I have a right to use a gun to deprive him of life.
Which is your right UNDER THE LAW.
Even if you're a legal slave?
Oh, and it's his right regardless of what the law says.
There you go with your slave again. Were you one?

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:48:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:55:30 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:14:12 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:08:17 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 18:05:49 -0800, Siri Cruise
in alt.atheism with message-id
The right for you to breath.
Since you don't have the right, maybe you had better stop
doing
it.
You're welcome to all the rights you want, but they're not
going
to
do you any
good until they're enforced. The right to breath isn't going to
help you after
you lock yourself in a freezer.
A 'right' only comes into play when a second party tries to
dictate
actions involving that 'right'. A person cannot violate their
own
rights.
If I am living alone on a desert island does it matter what
rights
I
have, if any?
Rights exist in human society.
And they are meaningless unless they are defined and enforced
under
the law in our society.
False.
Why? How about an example of such a 'right' that exists but is not
defined by the law.
No right is defined by "law."
All rights are defined by law. Otherwise they are unenforceable.
Please cite the legal statute that defines "The right to life".
I have asked exactly that same question and I have yet to get an
answer from anyone.
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
Indeed, can you point to ANY statute that specifically defines a right?
Sure. The right to vote, to keep and bear arms,
Please cite the specific statute that defines the right to vote.

Please cite the specific statute that defines in full the right to keep and
bear arms.

Note: once you do so, you will be bound to the definitions you supply.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
{snip}
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
There is the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment which has been
interpreted such that the government cannot take your life without a very
good reason.
So anyone else can kill you with impunity?

According to Attila the right has to be rigidly defined within the law or
such a right doesn't exist.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:50:14 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:57:29 -0500, "Scout"
My life is currently protected by the laws that define the
circumstances under which I can be legally killed.
No, it isn't. Your life isn't protected by law in any way.
True, but how I can be legally killed is rigidly defined.
Please indicate the statute in which the law allows a bolt of lightening
to
legally kill you.
Easy. It is in the same law that allows a landslide or an avalanche
to do the same thing.
And exactly which statute is that?
<crickets>

I'm beginning to think that Attila believes there are no rights at all.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:56:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:06:40 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:59:06 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:15:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:40:13 -0500, "Scout"
in
alt.atheism with message-id
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:02:26 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:14:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement
is
a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker how to
observe
his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage,
which
is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally burdens his
religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government to do
that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker how to
observe
his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate
the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else bake
a
cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right. There
are
just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the Bill
of
Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a few of
them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein
ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law. Otherwise a 'right' can be ignored with
impunity.
So unless you can define and enforce your right to life....then
I
can
kill
you with impunity because according to you your rights depend
only
on
what
the law defines and enforces?
Are you aware there are a number of laws defining when and where
I
can
kill you with impunity? Plus exactly where can I find this
elusive
'right to life'. I would like to see the details as to exactly
what
it covers.
True, and if I remove the laws that allow you to defend yourself
and
which
enforce your right to life....then I can murder you with impunity
and
neither you nor anyone else would complain because I would have
never
violated your rights.
But you will have violated the murder laws unless you acted in
compliance with them in every detail..
Not if those laws don't apply to you because the law says they
don't.
I mean how do you think the Jews in the Holocaust were killed?
Mostly by violation of existing laws.
False.
Even if true, by Attila's own statements without enforcement their
rights
don't exist.....so clearly according to Attila their killer was legal
since
there wasn't any enforcement to prevent it.
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it mean.
No, the act can be outside of the law.
And thus isn't illegal.
It can be allowed while no
being defined under the legal system
IOW, you admit it would be legal if not defined.
It simply is not prohibited.
Which means it is permitted.

We don't pass laws to tell people what they can do.....only what they can't.
Scout
2017-01-21 20:59:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:09:00 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:50:07 +0100 (CET), "Bradley K. Swerman"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:59:06 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:15:10 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:40:13 -0500, "Scout"
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 09:41:52 -0500, NoBody
alt.atheism with message-id
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:02:26 -0800, Rudy Canoza
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:14:53 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but your
statement
is
a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker how
to
observe
his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage,
which
is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally burdens
his
religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government to
do
that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker how
to
observe
his
faith and then give an example about how a baker MUST
violate
the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories
straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional right to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone else
bake
a
cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right. There
are
just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the
Bill
of
Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a few
of
them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that all
therein
ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The
First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it is a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined and
enforced
under the law. Otherwise a 'right' can be ignored with
impunity.
So unless you can define and enforce your right to
life....then
I
can
kill
you with impunity because according to you your rights depend
only
on
what
the law defines and enforces?
Are you aware there are a number of laws defining when and
where
I
can
kill you with impunity? Plus exactly where can I find this
elusive
'right to life'. I would like to see the details as to
exactly
what
it covers.
True, and if I remove the laws that allow you to defend
yourself
and
which
enforce your right to life....then I can murder you with
impunity
and
neither you nor anyone else would complain because I would have
never
violated your rights.
But you will have violated the murder laws unless you acted in
compliance with them in every detail..
Not if those laws don't apply to you because the law says they
don't.
I mean how do you think the Jews in the Holocaust were killed?
Mostly by violation of existing laws.
False.
Even if true, by Attila's own statements without enforcement their
rights
don't exist.....so clearly according to Attila their killer was legal
since
there wasn't any enforcement to prevent it.
Just because an act is not illegal does not automatically mean the act
is legal It would be outside the legal system and have no enforcement
mechanism.
The remedy would be to enact the necessary laws, but the act cannot be
enforced before such laws are established. And any extra-legal
enforcement must be done carefully because such acts themselves may be
illegal under existing law.
For example, it is illegal for an individual to physically restrain a
person from doing anything that is not illegal. Under our system
there is a distinct difference between being legal and not being
illegal. That is basically what the Ninth Amendment establishes.
Meaning if I lock some illegal aliens in my tool shed until ICE
comes to get them it's legal.
No, because you are making the determination that they are illegal, a
status only the government can determine. Therefore you are guilty of
false imprisonment.
BS - see "citizen's arrest"
Which can only be done under rigidly defined circumstances and which
leaves the arrestor open to a damage lawsuit.
I acknowledge your admission you were wrong.

Further I would note that police officers are held to similar rigidly
defined circumstances and punishments.
The only exception is during the commission of a crime and only until
the police arrive. That is not an arrest.
Arrest - 1.seize (someone) by legal authority and take into custody:

Which is EXACTLY what happens under a citizens arrest.

I suggest you study up on the topic you wish to discuss because right now
your 'firing from the hip' just makes you look stupid, ignorance and
idiotic.
Scout
2017-01-21 21:03:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:12:28 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:42:42 -0500, "Scout"
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined
and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored
that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate human intellect.
That's what the FF implied.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are
created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty
and
the
pursuit of Happiness.
In the DofI, which is a political document.
rights
are
antecedent to government and law.
So-called rights are meaningless unless there is an
enforcement
mechanism in place.
No.
Why not? If they aren't enforced they can be ignored by anyone
at
any
time.
Doesn't mean they will be.
Irrelevant. They can be.
Irrelevant. They generally won't be.
That is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.
It isn't. You are insisting that state-manufactured and backed laws
are
the only way rights can be enforced. Furthermore, you insist that
state-manufactured law defines rights. Both are false.
Wrong on all counts. I have said nothing about the state
manufacturing anything.
Who is the producer of our laws?
Point. Set. Match.
The government, but it is the people, not the organization.
So I can just randomly walk into Congress and vote to pass a piece of
legislation. After all, it's the people, and I'm certainly one of the
people.
Your elected representative has that responsibility.
Why? Because he's a person, or because he's part of the organization?
Sorry, but the government is defined AS THE ORGANIZATION.
A government is an organization, true.
Thus government is the organization. It contains people, but they exist as
part of the government only so much as they exist within the organization
that is government. Take those same people out of the organization, and they
no longer exist as part of the government. Obama was the President. He was
part of the government. He is still a person, but he's not longer part of
the government, because it wasn't his being a person that made him part of
the government, but rather being part of the organization that is
government.

Once again, we see how little you really know about the topics you would
chose to discuss/debate.
Scout
2017-01-21 21:04:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:13:55 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:47:55 -0500, "Scout"
Of course the Constitution doesn't do that, but
your
statement is a
strawman. The government isn't telling the baker
how
to observe his
faith. It is telling him he must serve a same-sex
marriage, which is
a generally-applicable law which incidentally
burdens
his religious
exercise. The Constitution permits the government
to
do that.
You just said the government doesn't tell the baker
how
to observe his
faith and then give an example about how a baker
MUST
violate the
belief system of his faith. Get your stories
straight...
And if he believes in human sacrifice?
That would violate someone else's constitutional
right
to
life.
No one has a constitutional right to make someone
else
bake a cake.
There is no such thing as a "constitutional" right.
There
are just
rights, a few of which receive specific mention in the
Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights creates no rights - it enumerates a
few
of them,
thereby helping to secure them.
The Bill of Rights by it's very name is stating that
all
therein ARE
rights. Did they call it the Bill of Suggestions? The
First
Ammendment is part of that Bill of Rights and thus it
is
a
right.
The only rights that exist are those that are defined
and
enforced
under the law.
False.
Please give me an example of a right that is not defined
and
enforced
by law and explain what would happen to me if I ignored
that
right.
No right is "created" by law. Rights are the product of
innate
human
intellect.
I did not say created. I said defined and enforced.
No, not defined. As for enforcement, state-created law is
not
the only
way to do that.
A law must define what is to be enforced.
The right is not defined by what's in the law. The definition
of
the
right is antecedent to all law.
To be of any use it must be enforced, and in our society the
only
enforcement mechanism is the legal system.
False.
What else is there?
Your inability to comprehend alternatives is not the problem of
anyone
but you.
You seem to have a problem in finding any other mechanism.
Found, and presented.
Not anywhere I have seen.
Odd, in most of the US one such mechanism is celebrated every 4th of
July.
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing.
Yep, it announced the Colonies desire to obtain their independence by any
means necessary, and established that the reason for doing so was because
of
violations of their rights as people.
It gave the reasons for breaking with England. It did not establish a
new country or a new government.
Actually it did, since that would be an automatic consequence of
independence.

Duh.
Attila
2017-01-21 21:12:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:17:05 -0800, Josh Rosenbluth
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 00:52:07 -0500, "Scout"
{snip}
So according to you there is no right to life.
I have yet to see one.
There is the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment which has been
interpreted such that the government cannot take your life without a
very good reason.
But it can take it.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

I am not conservitive so much as a rabid anti-liberal.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.
Scout
2017-01-21 21:13:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:16:49 -0500, "Scout"
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:33:02 -0500, "Scout"
The D of I is a political document that had one purpose and
established nothing. It cannot be used for anything as it has no
legal standing. It certainly cannot be used as the basis for
enforcing anything.
And yet it was used as a basis for enforcing their rights.
No, it was not.
Sure it was....even you admit that. (see below)
Since it was the opening act of the Revolutionary war, which resulted in
enforcement of their rights by force of arms against a government and
legal
system that refused to do so.
It resulted in the formation of a new country.
Which was the basis for enforcing their rights.
If the old government wouldn't enforce their rights, then they would
establish by force of arms a new one that would do so which was set forth
in
the Declaration of Independence.
That country was defined in the Constitution,
Wrong. The federal government was defined in Constitution.

The United states was defined within the Declaration of Indolence.

But tell me, what exactly was the United States of America between March 1,
1781 and September 13, 1788?

After all, in 1784, The Treaty of Paris was ratified with England officially
recognizing the United States as a nation and no other nation asserted a
claim over them.

So apparently the United States existed as an uncontested nation of it's own
from 1784 (at least) to the ratification of the current Constitution on Sep
13, 1788.

Really, you need to go back and retake high school civics, because you
clearly failed the course.

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